Some of those strops of that style took four razors in two swing outs."
Attachment 297335
Good luck!
~Richard
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Some of those strops of that style took four razors in two swing outs."
Attachment 297335
Good luck!
~Richard
Fox & Norris, huh? I don’t think I would have ever figured that on my own. Been going in circles for the last 2 hours and hadn’t gotten anywhere.
Thank you ,SG.
Those boxes are in really nice shape. The leather on this one is pretty much completely gone on the base. Unfortunately the name carved into the handle of the box is nearly illegible. The area I found it in dates back to the late 1800’s and is fairly well documented. I need to take some more pictures of it and fool with exposure settings and see if I can’t actually read it. A rubbing maybe a good way too, I think I’ll try that first.
The Norris are relatively easy to find. A French collector has a collection of 7 copies. He found them all in France. Production must have been important. Your box is french
Nice! Thanks!
The second one is a George Revil https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...revill-george/
Well done!
Actually, a Samuel Norris (1745 - 1817), his parents were Matthew Norris and Catherine Fox.
Catherine Fox was the sister of John Fox, Sheffield, razor-maker (1714 - 1793)
John Fox was one of three brothers, which never married, the mark *P went to Samuel Norris.
Here are 3 razors, the first (with a slight "Dip-at-toe") is a John Fox (see spine). The second
(nice "Dip-at-toe") is a Samuel Norris (not using the *P). The third is a Samuel Norris as well,
using the *P. Since the shape of the razor, it is made around the beginning of the 1800's,
so it must be a Samuel Norris.
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Yours is a bit older, it seems to be made around the end of the 18th century - 1800's.
Your box is marked by the punch of Crenet, Parisian cutler. All the boxes were not marked, but I have already seen. I have a box similar to yours with the punch of Cuvier in Paris.
Thank you for the description. This helped. I understand the thinking to create a "true" wedge, as this was what I was thinking before, though I didn't realize that there were no true wedges made... except through trial and error, and then it stopped. They stopped trying to make true wedges based on their own experience, and or the experiences of others.
Even with taping the spine, on a "true" wedge, the problem will not be addressed, as the tape folded down leaving the spine edge will contact before the actual spine edge..
This will not fix the rolling problem that the true wedge has.
You can't escape that problem with tape.
IMHO It would be a mistake to take a beautiful piece of history and destroy it, when the experience of others, experience that literally spans centuries, strongly suggests a different approach.
Perhaps you might take a cheap crappy wedge, like I did, and learn the lesson that way.
I will say though, that I wished that I had read this thread before doing that, and I still had a level of guilt for destroying even a scrappy wedge that could have been saved.
To each his own though, and this is simply my limited opinion.
True it depends on the dating of the razor - it's obviously not old enough to predate the Fox & Norris partnership but as Neil brought up in one of the threads a while ago somewhere between 1787 and 1797 the mark was passed on from the partnership to Samuel Norris.
Richard, the best info I’ve come across so far for our strop boxes is a little snippet from an Etsy add:
Crenet Fils manufactured various quality items such as razors, stones, cutlery and general toiletry objects between 1810 and 1830.
Thanks lohar for the help with stamp, it’s nearly impossible to make out the last few letters on mine.
My lynx eye saw it. Italian collector Alessandro Beltrame, known on the forum as "ALTUS" has one in his box. You can contact him to compare
There are three on the bay with razors in them.
French Bench Strop
Another:
Antique-Strop-Sharpener-Box-w-French-straight-razors/
And:
ht/Antique-wood-straight-razor-box-w-French-straight-razors/
Have fun!
~Richard
An attempt to taxonomy of the French strop boxes:
Dater les plumiers
My contribution with this just fixed Wolf
Attachment 301073
Sorry, i'm still not QUITE understanding what 'dip at toe' means... "slight hollow at the toe near hte spine" is what i gathered...but can someone show me an example, or draw me a diagram, cuz i can't see the hollow at that angle can i? (i.e. blade flat/long side facing me)
dip how? So like, where the width of the blade is smaller at about 80% of the way to toe than it would normally be?
If that's it then : OOOH i see it now, ok. Why though? i initially thought it was an imperfection or something.
Tze "Dip-at-toe" ;)
Attachment 301082
Who started the practice and why is unknown, but it can be used for determine the age of the razor
https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...8th-century-2/
ooh yea that's what i thought, the descriptions I saw in places just confused me...so if you meausure the distance between spine and edge (which is usually what people talk about when they say '7/8' or '11/16' etc, right?) that number will get a bit smaller at some point right? (or smaller than expected for a smile).
Yes, but these razors are generally, if not always, smaller in width towards the tang,
so, a 7/8' razors from 1780 is just 7/8' at its widest area, that's all ;)
Is my Brammal a dip-at-toe? It seems as it has a very very light dip at the second pic:
Attachment 301388
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Yep, absolutely! ;)
SO... guess what I finally have in my hands? :D. Based on the information I read here, and on geneology site(s) across the interwebs and other places, here's a little (possibly slightly fictional) story I made for this razor:
Yes, I know - I'm terrible at story telling :(.Quote:
Stephen Fox, a Cutler in Westbar Sheffield had 3 sons - John, Stephen and William who all went on to follow in their fathers footsteps. He also had daughters amongst whom was Catherine Fox, who (by 1739) had married Matthew Norris, son of another famous cutlers family in sheffield at the time. By 1748 the mark "*P" was registered to "Fox & Norris" - presumably John Fox and Matthew Norris.
John Fox (the oldest) continued to make razors on his own, and under the "Fox & Norris" '*P' brand. By 1777 Son of Catherine and Matthew - Sam Norris was made master cutler, running his own business (eventually "Sam Norris and Sons"). The mark of "*P", however continued to be used by the ever popular "Fox & norris" company until, sometime in the 1790s the last of the brothers - John Fox had died (Matthew Norris and Catherine Fox both having died a few decades prior). Finally dissolving the "Fox and Norris" company and bequeathing the "*P" makers mark to Sam Norris, sometime in the final years of the 18th century. Sam eventually went bankrupt in 1809 and died a few years later.
Sometime between the start of the "*P" mark in 1740s and the death of the last Fox brother in 1790's this razor was made. Likely some years later, when tensions with United States was starting to peak in the early years of 19th century then owner bought a razor strop box for two razors made by parisian cutler "Crenet Fils". Did he buy another razor for it? did he already own one? Or did the razor itself come in a set with two razors made by the now late fox&norris company as the 19th century began...we'll never know. Nor will we ever know what happened to the other razor.
YEARS later, the box along with at least one of the razors found its way to Northern California - perhaps even brought there shortly after the war of 1812 and the tensions between US and UK died down? It eventually found its way to the back of an antique store in a small town somewhere near the bay area...where it was picked up in 2018 - well over 200 years after it was first made. It was then restored by hand, the scales (now bug bitten) re-filled and recolored and shipped to Canada...where it will stay with me for centuries more.
I DID find a twin for this - made by Sam Norris, marked "Sam Norris" so potentially made between 1777 and 1797 (when he would have certainly inherited the "*P" mark and used it?)...so hopefully this razor will not have to miss it's twin for much longer, after almost decades and even a century or two, they will be reunited :)
P.S:
BTW i found some geneology info about Stephen Fox and his family: Stirnet And if you can take a screenshot before the site kicks you out for not logging in - it seems catherine died around 1746? wow that seems REALLY early.
Nice write up, Bro. The story was great.! It could go into greater depth, but was just right.
I'll add a few pics for you.
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Alright folks, here's another one (is this one "dip at toe" as well?)... initial assessment from Glen says it's in great shape -
Attachment 301991
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As an S:Norris, I'd initially thought this to be 1770-1790 or so, and i'm not sure if this is just the lighting or some regrinding done at some point or what, but there's more of a "shoulder" than I've seen on blades with this shape and from 1700s (not actually a shoulder, but idk what to call it: there's a more pronounced distinction between blade and tang on the plane).
Also: what's the steel marking? I can make out maybe "****AN STEEL" ?
Possible answer from https://acierfondu.wordpress.com/mak.../early-razors/ - "GERMAN STEEL" (razors shown there marked from the 1700's made in sheffield).
More abt "German Steel" here http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/Mem...20Industry.pdf
Quote:
During the second half of the sixteenth century — the first account of the process
came from Prague in 1574 — someone in Central Europe invented the cementation
process whereby bars of wrought iron were converted to what was commonly known
as ‘blister steel’ because of the various-sized blisters that were raised on the surface.10
It was also known in England as ‘Cullen steel’ because it came via Cologne or as
‘German steel’, but that became a generic name that was applied to cementation steel
made in England during the later seventeenth century. We do not know whether the
‘German steel’ that was sold to Hallamshire scissorsmiths by the Cutlers’ Company in
1681 or the ‘parcel of German Steel’ recorded in the inventory of a Sheffield cutler in
1702 actually came from Germany or from English sources.
Nice German Steel Samuel Norris razor!
No "Dip-at-toe " though, and no shoulder as well, for me it is around 1790 :D
oh when i said "shoulder" i meant that...the tang and the blade aren't at equal height there's a little jump there, you can see the shadow...sorry tough to explain. Didn't know what to call it - not that the other blades i've seen don't have it but it seemed more pronounced on this one.
Ah, you mean the line where the grinding started on the blade!
As far as I know, at this moment, there are no conclusions to be made regarding age if this line should have another style...
A "shoulder" is the transition line UNDER the tang, between tang and edge
;)
:hmmm: I see... Understood! ;)
aww :(. From what you've told me though, it's quite amazing how the style changed in such a short time period, between 1750 and 1810 blades went through SO MUCH change, it seems.
The amazing thing to me is all the "steel" markings in that whole period - "German Steel", "Acier Fondu", "Silver Steel", "Cast Steel"
Also: Like by now, i understand what a "dip at toe" is, but i'm STILL not seeing it or able to spot it...it's like my brain refuses to process "dip at toe".
No worries, yes, indeed, it surprises me as well! Good for us for estimating the production date
To identify, maybe it helps to look at the bump on the spine?
Attachment 302003
Attachment 301999
The spine is not straight, it also isn't a curved spine without bumps, it is a spine with a bump, or as a matter of speaking, it has 2 curved areas
Don't know if this helps...
see what i see there, is the bit where the spine curves upwards drastically at the toe...that's a consistent theme I'm seeing this thread...other than that - I know a few posts prior someone explained the bit RIGHT before the curve up (in your pic here it looks to be rusted a wee bit) where there's a dip...but it's REALLY hard for me to spot that for some reason.
It is indeed the wee rusted bit, just keep on trying to spot it, it will be better I'm sure!