Good point, missed that ;)
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Need your help guys:
Found this, thinking about putting in a bid. Let me know if you guys want me to move this to it's own thread or smthg...
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-1790...l/113816000548
Couple of questions:
1. That IS a dip-at-toe right? did i finally find one "in the wild"? lol, I'm so bad at spotting it still.
2. Whatsup with the "straight plain wood" scales...never seen one like that before.
3. That chip made me think: is THIS why a lot of the really old blades I see have a sort of "dip" near the heel? i.e the blade itself is thinner than the heel/shoulder or whatever (cuz u can't grind the heel/shoulder) and it make a little dip where the cutting edge stops, so the edge make a sharp turn in the direction of the cutting edge before meeting the heel? (sorry if i'm describing this badly).
4. I think i saw one other picture of a 'G. Smith' on this forum and in the directory... "George Smith & Sons, Peacroft"?
Definitely has a dip, though the toe looks really rotten at the edge. The scales aren’t original. The heel to tang junction is pretty typical for a blade of that era.
+1 for the scales being homemade replacements (common for razors of this age). This one has very little wear for its age (hone wear or grinding) but has seen a lot of rust. The maker is Georgius Smith (different from George Smith), and appears only in Sketchley 1774 and not Gales & Martin 1787.
oh i actually meant that other blades in this thread have a heel to tang junction that isn't straight, i always wondered about why that is. Rotten toe doesn't sound good. Is it recoverable? Depending on how much work it'll require it may not be worth $110? I was honestly thinking of trying my own hand at it (making it shave ready)...maybe not for newbie then? lol
Oh it *is* Georgius smith? huh, I misread the Sketchleys then...OH i see it now, there's a line right before the George smith one. Would you keep the scales? Interesting though, now I'm curious to know when and who made the scales.
For the heel to tang junction, if I understand correctly, you need to look at near pristine razors - those will generally have a smooth transition. Ones that are very honed or ground will not. See here for an example:
Attachment 309290
The razor is probably recoverable but there may be more of the blade eaten away at the edge than appears. I would probably not attack it without experience. This opinion is not widely shared, but if it were mine I would probably trash the scales and replace with something either from the period or remade in the proper style. Personally, I would probably grab this one if I didn't already have one. Georgius Smith razors don't come up too often.
My thoughts were exactly that regarding the rarity and scales. I really do hate to do it, but I do not trust those scales, and it just looks weird. Maybe i can find some trashed razors from that age with good enough scales? That's still unlikely, in all my hunting I haven't seen it yet.
Also: good GOD, "shoulderless age" razors are SO RARE. And dip-at-toes even more so.
Regarding the edge, i was thinking about like this one that fikira posted:
See that the edge curves in? I was always wondering why, and it occured to me that it may be because of honing it down to such a level..which is what you're saying as well then.
Hi,
I just got hold of this dip-toe, and try to find out more. It has anchor and below that some letters.
Anyone's got a clue?
Could be:
..ICH
...ICK
..TCK
..TCH
and perhaps an R or an B before that:
..RICH
...RICK
..BICK
..BICH
Attachment 312650
Attachment 312651
Attachment 312654
1787 Gales & Martin Directory
It's not an anchor, it's a crown
Thanks a lot!
Seems like Richard Staniland wasn't that well known. I cannot find much but his adress and occupation.
It's already a good thing to find it in a directory:)
posting this here, hoping to get some inputs, I hope this is ok (let me know otherwise):
opinion on this one: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Earl...cAAOSwq2Nd5W5O
1. I want to try and do this myself, not sure how hard it is for a newbie like me
2. What's up with the shape? The heel looks like someone grounded it as a way to overcome a "heel hook", but the toe is weird too, is that normal, it's not a straight line - the spine is longer than the edge.
3. I KNOW I've seen that mark somewhere, I'd wager it's english (purely based on the fact that if I remember it, it's more likely to be english)...but just can't put my finger on it.
Attachment 314194
Star - tomahawk - 7: this punch has already been seen but never identified.
However we can see on this razor an inscription almost erased above which could give clues to the great specialists of this forum
Please forgive the thread breaking😔 has anyone heard of "Holbem&Co" waranted? I can't find anything... 2 pictures, that's it😒. Any ideas?
No idea I'm afraid...
Thank You Fikira,
Knowing your history in this group it pleases me to have one that stumps a senior member. I've only found 2 pictures in 4 years of researching this maker, as well as ( for the time being) the hall of cuttlers. I wished there was a more comprehensive book with the makers marks out there because I believe it would change the face of the straight collecting world.
So how do I PM people on here😕
Thank You tintin, for some reason I'm not showing that option🙁
Probably because I use my phone. It might not support it. Its not there though.
Thank You for your help 👍
I've seen maybe one or two with that stamp in my time.
Digging around in records, I can find much, but I can identify the Holbem of Holbem & Co.
It was Thomas Holbem. He's mentioned exactly once in the apprentice registries as a razor maker apprenticing John Bartlem in 1803 for the standard period of 7 years.
HOWEVER, the optical character recognition for Google Books' copy of Volume II of Leader's History didn't pick up his listing as an apprentice because the print is small and Holbem was being read as Holbern, because he's listed there as Thomas Holbem, son of John (grocer), apprenticed to William Wright, cutler (another seldom-seen name!) in 1780 and freed 1802, just in time to take John Bartlem as an apprentice.
John seems to have never finished his apprenticeship though, so it's entirely possible that Thomas Holbem fell out of the trade, since he doesn't show up as a cutler of any stripe in any of the usual directories.
A dig through Ancestry doesn't turn up much, but I strongly suspect this is the fellow:
Attachment 314949
(that is from the monthly meeting of the Balby, Quakers of Sheffield, Doncaster, etc, and is their burial records)
Most likely what we're looking at there is the burial record for someone who died very poor, as many cutlers did.Quote:
Twenty Sixth Day of the Third Month of 1832 (when died) -- Thomas Holbem -- Abt. 66 (years old) -- Sheffield (residence) -- (blank description) -- Twenty Ninth Day of the Third Month of 1832 (when buried) -- Sheffield, not a member (where buried)
Unfortunately, that's all I can turn up.
Though I can add that the (name) & Co style mark was very common around that time period, with Wilton & Co, Styring & Co, and at least several others I can't quite sift out of the back of my head at the moment.
I thought i would add this little one to the thread.
No idea who the maker is . The tang stamp reads quite strange Rodxin.R ...Unless my eyes deceive me.
The scales are extremely nice..
Attachment 316625
Attachment 316626
Attachment 316627
Attachment 316628
Attachment 316629
Attachment 316630
Attachment 316631
Attachment 316632
wow the work on those scales. Always amazes me that:
1. Given the age, it was prbly done by hand right? just think about that, no modern machinery...
2. that it survived this long without being broken, rubbed off etc...you can still see the details.
Kinda like visiting those old temples or archeological sites where you see intricate stone work...
That is not a "Dip-at-toe" I'm afraid, sorry!
The scales were made by pressing slabs of horn in an iron mold. So not exaaaactly handmade, but not machine made either!
Horn is astoundingly durable as long as dermestid beetles don’t find it.
It was made by Ignaz Rösler in Nixdorf, Bohemia, probably in the 1820’s. He was a leading light in cutlery production in the city.
What you’re seeing is an incomplete stamp of I. R. Frodoxin. Why he spelled Nixdorf backwards is it’s own whole topic of discussion, but his earlier razors did not do that.
And Fikira is correct, it’s not a dipped-toe Sheffield razor.
Did i finally manage to get one? It's currently On it's way to me (this is a picture taken before honing). Also, is it a Birks? I know the pipe-mark has a very interesting and complex history, and i've been through Fikira's website/page about the mark dozens of times...but - what's up with the random "N", or is that a "Z"?
Will post more pics once I have it.
Unfortunately the original scales (wood, iirc) was busted so this is a newly made Macassar Ebony scales.
Attachment 316697
You got one before me?!
Looks great too. Looks like a dip a toe, but I don't know much about them. I really like the look of those simple, fan shaped blades.:rock:
Original scales were probably horn, but they do resemble wood when they get faded and dried out. The ebony wood is nice.
Oh yea, snatched it up RIGHT AWAY. re - wood vs horn REALLY? That makes sense re:horn though, horn is super popular in the blades i've seen of that era here (from what I can tell at least), here's the original pic rusted blade and all from griffiths...look at the one on the bottom left that side look positively wood-ish no? Actually come to think of it, the other side looks pretty much like horn and that could just be dirty and dried horn, you're right...
I asked them to send the old scales as well, maybe I can find a way to reattach it (it's not broken in two or anything, far as i can tell).
Attachment 316701
Looks like bone, to me
Yup, bone.
Original wood scales in the old times are extremely scarce.
That does look a lot like wood or dirty bone. I'm hesitant to say one way or the other. I've seen a couple pics or razors where one scale was the original material and the other side was wood!
The pivot looks like it has been repinned. If the other pin is the same way that razor could have been rescaled a hundred years ago. Great razor with a lot of history!
EDIT: Others are leaning towards bone and they are probably right. I would like to see a close up pic of that scale on the bottom left.
Thanks for posting the before pics!
amazing razor! I'm still on the hunt too.
oh yea i;m hoping he sent the original scales as i'd requested but i should have more pics in a week or so either way. Actually here's a closeup of one of the scales:
Attachment 316702