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All,
Can anyone give me specifics on the composition of the steel used in days of old for razor making? I would also like any information on steel used now, IF it has changed significantly.
By specifics, I mean carbon composition, other alloying percentages (manganese, chromium, etc.). Also, typical quenching (or not quenching) and heat treating practices (tempered, annealed, etc.).
Any info will help. Working on some things for my materials engineering senior design.
Thanks in advanced.
I can't give specifics, I'm sure other will fill u in on that shortly, however I can say with 100% certainty that vintage makers, especially Sheffield cutlers all had different proprietary formulations, some of which may have also included experimental material which may or may not have improved the quality of the steel.
Almost no 2 steel producing companies would be. Crafting the same exact product.
Yeah on proprietaries, one can buy a dozen different brand-name variations (composition and/or heat treatment) of what falls under the general specification "4130" and that's just for bicycles. I know of at least 3 or 4 different alloys being used to make black powder gun barrels (not counting 4140). I'll imagine it's much like that in the knife/razor industry (current and historic).
There's a "How it's Made" episode made at Dovo. See the most of the process there.
As i unnerstand it you work your metal (steel in this case) as much as you can as soft as you can, if it work hardens too much, then an annealing stage is used. After most of the processing, hardening is performed, and then tempering back to the needs of the application. And in some cases heat or extreme cold are used for stress-relieving the work. Mix and match to make it work.
That's an interesting one. Don't know what your design project is specifically but by chance do you have access to some kind of spectrometer there at school? It'd be cool to test a bunch of different vintage razors to see exactly what they contain.
It's true that in last 2 centuries there were many razor manufactoring brands, but steel production was concentrated in few large companies, mainly in UK, Sweden and Germany.
Then you can understand that variations were in carbon content (from 0.5 to 1.2 %) and in very small quantities of alligants (less than 0.3%), because steel foundries didn't have such large product catalogues as you can find today.
All manufacturers were buying similar steel bars, what is differentiating them is mainly the heath treatment not the steel composition.
And you can find common strategies in the same manufactoring area.
For example most France made razors are in silversteel with heath treatment that makes the steel very hard, but with big grain and difficult to hone.
Most razors in Sheffield area are mild steel (56-58 hrc) with very fine grain and consequently very easy to hone, though they need touch ups more often.
Solingen was in the middle, moreover in that area there were so many manufacturers that there you can find a larger spread of heat treatment techniques.
The vast majority of Sheffield producers didn't make their own steel.
Wade & Butcher did -- in fact, steel refining was their larger business, Greaves & Sons did, Charles Pickslay did as well as the Sanderson brothers (whose razors are very hard to find, but do exist).
Most of the ore used for old Sheffield razors came from Sweden, but over time many other sources were used as well -- India, Russia, America and probably others I'm forgetting.
Others will have better information about steel composition than I will -- it's not really my area.
You could find some interesting links here, though not everything in english:
Ilrasoio.com • Leggi argomento - Database e argomenti relativi acciai
Crikey - you aren't asking much, are you?! Do we get marks for doing your project for you? Maybe you'll just take us all out for drinks?
Seriously, everything you asked for can be found in libraries, on the web, and even in the threads on this very forum as your question has been asked before and answered at some length. All you have to do is invest your own time and put in the legwork to find out - that's what these sort of projects are about after all, isn't it?
If I was you I would get the basics from books, learned articles, published papers and pamphlets before collating data from the web. Historical articles on the web would be next, before going on to forums where quite frankly much of the info is misleading - anyone who can type can post what they think is right, for example. Some don't even understand the processes involved in getting steel from iron ore...
Some things you might want to research, by no means exhaustive though and not in a time-line, are:
Robert Faraday and James Stodart's alloying experiments
Pickslay and Padley's use of real silver in steel and trademarking the name Peruvian Steel
David Mushet, scottish metallurgist and his use of black-band ironstone and career at Clyde Iron Works, Calder Iron Works, Alfreton Ironworks, Whitecliff Iron Works, Darkhill Ironworks
Robert Forester Mushet, son of David, Forest Steelworks, Titanic Steelworks, spathose iron ore, spiegel glanz, ferro-manganese, his help in making Bessemers convertor work, his steel formulations particularly RMS steel, Samuel Osborne buying the rights to RMS - the first tool and air hardening steel - and using it for such diverse articles as razors and railway lines
Crucible Steel, its origins in India where it was known as Wootz and its relationship to Damascus Steel
Benjamin Huntsman's rediscovery of crucible steel and its marketing as Acier Fondu
Types of steel including blister steel, shear steel, double shear steel, acier fondu/crucible steel/cast steel
Finery furnaces, puddling furnaces, blast furnaces, convertors, electric furnaces
Henry Bessemer's convertor making cheap steel a reality and the Gilchrist-Thomas improvements to the process and the Siemans-Martin process, Siemens open hearth process
The need for using pure ore in the Bessemer process in order that phosphorus rich brittle steel does not result (spiegel, ferromanganese)
Swedens rich natural resources and early metal industry using limonite or bog iron ore,
The purity of Swedish, Michigan and Welsh iron ore, the finest iron ore from sweden: Oregrund, Dannemora ore, Uppsala/Uppland, Eskilstuna and the Rademacher area location of C V Heljestrand, Erik Anton Berg, J A Hellberg
How steel making changed significantly in the 1950s
The above only touches a few parts of your question. Happy googling.
Regards,
Neil
Unfortunately, the EDS is closed til the New Year due to building renovations. And the etching lab I have access to is closed due to crappy fume hood, although I mentioned I am good at holding my breath for a long time. They didn't buy it. Which means can't get micrograph images either. I might try my luck at the beginning of next semester.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalCake
In this PDF they show how steel was produced in Sweden before the industrialization, text in Swedish, sorry but feel free to ask if there is anything you want to know.
http://sinunda.se/sidor/Tranemojarn/.../prosessen.pdf
One of the fellows that used to hang around here did collect broken blades and had quite a number spectrographed. I got to see the results. The samples cut across all of Europe (Swedish, UK, French, Italian), and if recall serves me, the blades were all generally "old" pre war relics, but not nineteenth century. There was an insignificant difference in the steel composition. Carbon averaged 1.25% with very little in the way of other alloying elements. This suggests a crucible melt of consistent quality, aka Sheffield manufacture, with wide distribution to any number of razor factories making the blades from the raw material. It was an interesting shirt-cuff study. All that got lost when he left. Sorry to offer not much more than here-say.
No chance off getting it, no one knows him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
That's very interesting Mike.
I can well believe that there was very little difference in the steel composition around that time, as most of the big companies had, by then, been long established and one can see how repeatability would be a huge plus.
Germany imported a huge amount of Sheffield steel, as did most other countries, and Swedish ore would be a key ingredient in Sheffield steel. It also was key in many Japanese and German made steels - some practical german firms even bought their own mines in Sweden.
Sheffield silver steel was used by very many german razor makers, and Kayser, Ellison & Co were a major Sheffield exporter. Puma and Bartmann among others used their product. Apart from silver steel they also made, blister, best double shear and crucible cast steels.
Personally, I am more interested in earlier steels. Sheffield at that time abounded with steel makers, both large and small, who produced a bewildering variety of alloy steels. If you wanted it, they could make it. In Geoffrey Tweedale's words it was the home of bijou steels. If blades spanning earl/mid 1700s to the late 1800s were analysed then I am sure the differences would be marked, but gradually standardising as time went on.
Regards,
Neil
I remember when Josh Earl was going to get a project like that, analyzing steel composition, going. He posted a request for donations of junk blades and I sent an old cracked Cattaragaus cutlery blade to him. Dunno if that project ever got off the ground, unless that is who Mike is referring to ? I never heard of any results. :thinking:
Knowing some folks in the physics department at one of the local universities, I've been really tempted to try and seduce a professor into repeating James Hadfield's analysis of Sheffield silver steel using much better sample sizes and controls. Plus, apparently they've got a very fancy new machine that can analyze much less destructively.
The Stodart razor Faraday gave to his father-in-law is visible in an online museum -- and you can see the holes Hadfield drilled in it (the picture in his book doesn't have them).
Yes, it was Josh. As I said, I got to see and discuss the results but that's about as far as everything got and Josh was dragged away by life AFAIK.
You know I had a spearmint I wanted to do also, kind of a reverse of what Josh was going to do....He sends me one of his razors and I shave with it and guess what the composition of the steel is....that one didn't get off the ground either.
This I posted on another forum a while back:
Just some small things to think about before making blanket statements about so and so's steel and its quality and abilities!
Iron becomes steel and hardened steel through changing the size of the grain and the quantity and type of carbon contained. There are and have been many processes which did this to a greater or lesser degree of success.
Yesterday I was able to enjoy a pleasant conversation with a long established (46+ years) expert welder and restorer of edged weapons, armour, and fire arms for museums. I guarantee that he knows more than a bit of modern and ancient metallurgy! His opinion, from his experience, is that there are so many variables in older steel manufacturing that any pre 1900 blade is apt to be a toss up and even some since then!
There were manufacturers and smiths that used processes similar to those now in use and others that probably did not!
Some ‘for instances':
The Crucible steel production method of Sheffield and others and earlier, of The Ottoman Empire (Wootz) and in some cases the Nordic and Germanic peoples was a great way to make quality steel in small quantities. It also took a week of careful heat control and a good bit of legerdemain with carbon in the form of charcoal, iron ore selection and preparation plus addition of wrought iron and the stirring in of elements at the proper time to do it well. (some other methods were wrought, folded steels)
Much of the difference of early steel qualities was due to the iron ore and where it was mined/found/ reduced from sand. The included chemicals and elements would, of course, vary from site to site. Much of the quality steel of northern Europe was from the Nordic areas. The Arabic, Northern African and Mediterranean areas had their own ore sources and the Japanese used hematite; a sand.
He also pointed out that some of the Wedge blades we think are ground off center to the spine were probably caused by the owners sharpening through the case hardening at the bevel and so from then on they only honed one side to keep the hard surface all the way to the edge. He has seen this effect on old knives such as butcher knives. It may show up as a line of differently oxidized steel above the bevel on some blades.
According to him, there were many knife, sword, and cutlery manufacturers who used pack case hardening* well into the late 1800s; a process that turned the surface of a poor steel into a steel capable of taking and holding and edge.. If done properly, the hardness went into the metal about 1.5mm or 1/16th of an inch. It also left a relatively soft and flexible core in the blade to absorb shock. A simple way to explain the effect; there is a tale of a armor-smith's apprentice who accidentally dropped a helm of iron wrapped in leather into a forge. It became a surface harder than they had ever done before. Yup, you and I know the apprentice got beaten and may have been thrown out rather than rewarded. Howsomever, the tale is a common one in historical fiction.
So, a bit of knowledge will help understand some of the historical possibilities inherent in a great material that made modern civilization, cleanliness, and large scale war possible. It is a green material in the modern parlance and may be reheated, re-alloyed and reused, to any required effect.
*Pack case hardening is used to take a low carbon content steel to a higher surface content of carbon capable of hardening and tempering. It is done by placing the by low to medium carbon steel/wrought iron** into a thick walled airtight iron box with certain types of charcoal, animal hides, tanned and otherwise, and horn and bone scraps by use of eyeball quantities and TLABR ( That Looks About Right), and assorted chemical additives. Some of them like arsenic really helped the final quality and some were somewhat imaginative; silver for instance, a good example of early hype!! The box and contents were placed into a forge type forced draft oven/kiln and kept at high heat for up to a week. This allowed the carbon to ‘soak’ into the steel without being burned out of it by oxygen. The amount of time and temperature control greatly affected the final result. The methods were mostly eyeball, mark 1. The resulting steel and all contents were then dumped into hot water, brine, or oil. That hardened the steel. It was then tempered. Or by some methods it was used to harden only the very surface of tools and or gun parts to withstand abrasion.
You can see beautiful blue/gold/red/brown color case hardening on many quality firearms and quality tools for the shop and mechanician from early days to the present day.. for more info,see Wikipedia:Link Here
**Wrought iron is iron which has been processed by heat and forging into an iron with a much smaller grain size and carbon content It also has inclusions of slag. It was an iron we may call wrought but was also known as malleable ( for cold and hot working and weldable. Much less brittle than grey iron.) For more info, see Wikipedia: This link
It was only a short conversation, it could have gone on into a month and year. I look forward to more of such conversations when we get together at a similar venue in six months. I was able to verify some of the things which I had wondered 'bout. He asked me about some things with which i was familiar, at least in theory, and I was able to point him to some resources I had used in the past.
Nothing we do has a short answer which will suit all cases of a subject and I have been burned many times by believing "Gospel according to some practitioner.
I look forward to comments upon this short bit of shared information.
~Richard
That is exactly what interests me about early forms of iron and steel, Richard: that combination of sound principle and the arcane which often produced remarkable, sometimes legendary, results.
What could be more mysterious and produce such a mixed result as the old bloomery forge, for example, several examples of which still exist.
Strip the arcane from it then we still have sound practice where we can trace the path of material evolution, for instance:
(Blast furnace) pig iron/cast iron, (puddling furnace) -wrought iron , (cementation furnace) - blister steel - shear steel - (crucible pots) crucible steel, etc, etc.
Nearly all of the old cementation processes were long-winded, and when one product (eg wrought iron) was converted into another (eg blister steel) that was converted into another (eg crucible steel) then we are talking of times greatly in excess of a couple of weeks.
One of the main ingredients would never be found in any example of these steels - the art, strength and commitment of the men who made them. Imagine the hammering, folding and welding of those who converted blister steel into shear steel. Or the fortitude of those who stood before the open slits in a puddling furnace, raking/puddling its molten contents while their clothing nearly caught fire. Or the strength of the single man who held the crucible put in a great set of tongs which themselves weighed a colossal amount and lifted and poured its contents steadily while he and his companions were engulfed in the smoke, sparks and steam arising from tne wet cloth binding their legs and bodies.
Those men are long gone, and all but forgotten, the very men to which we owe the convenience of our way of life. The processes they used survived until comparatively recently though, in terms of commercial pours. For instance the last commercially made puddling was in the 1970s.
With regard to case hardening, it was long regarded in Sheffield as a means of making shoddy and second rate edged implements that did not last long, and I believe that statutes were taken out against its use a very long time ago, breaching of which resulted in fines, possible imprisonment and summary dismissal from the Cutlers Guild.
That there were different ways to reaching an end is indisputable, but that only makes study of the subject more rewarding and helps to maintain that arcane nature that casts a delightful tone over those early pioneers, redolent of the alchemysts of an even earlier age.
Regards,
Neil
I find this thread interesting, having lots of old razors. I know nothing of steel, with exception of working with it. There is such a wide variety of old steel out there in razors, knives and all manner of implements and instruments. It can be replicated, if not by accident, but surely on purpose! ;) The steel is different in all razors, but particularly in old ones which are prone to being too hard, or too soft. Lots were hit and miss back when! Some are the epitome of straight razor steel. Just Right! They have voice, a tone. Can you hear it? I can. I just love good straight-shaving steel, regardless of where and how it comes. Newer, production stuff will never have it. Of that, I feel certain. Those with that quality are worth holding onto, IMO.
Spazola Knows! His steel is such :D
I suppose an easier way to attack this that I should have thought of in the beginning is to ask our custom razor makers here at SRP.
Custom razor makers: what types of steel(s) do you tend to favor or lean towards(high carbon, low carbon, etc.)? What types of processing methods do you typically use? I'm not asking for the "secret ingredients" of your razor recipe. I do not need specifics (holding at x temperature for y minutes). Just the general practices.
Any info would be nice. Thanks to everyone who has posted here in attempts to help my young self.
Thanks.
Side note: I tend to frequently call myself old, especially around folks much older than I. I am only 21, but having had to work a lot growing up on a farm and weedeating and cut firewood for money in high school, my body feels much older than 21. However, the old-timers, (and I don't just mean old-timers where I live, because they grew up the same manner I did for a MUCH longer period of time, but even adults who live here in the city where I go to school), don't seem to feel that I am allowed to call myself old. The types of adults I mostly speak of are those who drove a delivery truck whilst in high school (no shame in that, needs to be done), but feel the need to tell me I don't know about hard work. That just gets kind of aggravating. If I am ever around you and call myself old, and you are much older than I, feel free to correct me. However, please don't cut me short on the few gray hairs I have earned and the hard, honorable work I put in during my younger years.
That's not unusual, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by broger
I stopped having school holidays when I was old enough to work - I used to have to help my father on a road gang, breaking out concrete, asphalt and tarmac, digging out roads and pathways, laying concrete and hot rolled asphalt and tarmac. Boy, I used to long for the holidays to end! Before that I had to practice digging drainage trenches and manholes. By the time I was 19 I was pulling up whole flagstone footpaths in town, by hand, digging out the lime putty bedding, the sand levelling layer and then another 4 inches before backfilling with leanmix concrete and tarmac. By 21 I was overseeing whole housing projects but still doing all the oversite work like digging drainage, connecting to the highway sewer, making the paths and roads, laying the kerbing, salt glaze pipework and manhole ring sections and going to night school twice a week.
And that was having it easy - some of my contemporaries had it much, much harder.
The older guys I worked with had it harder still. My own father had six part time jobs while still at school - when he left to work full time he was making less money then when he was at school. By your age he had already been bull-ganger on large building sites - anyone who couldn't keep up with him was sacked, before getting a loan for an excavator and lorry and starting a road gang with only him and his brother. When they built walls he didn't have a trowel - he had a cut-down shovel, even the mortar mixers had a hard time keeping up with him and two were working on him alone. They (dad and his brother) had families and worked all the hours they could, and my dad still went out selling from a suitcase when he got home and went to Petticoat Lane Market to pick up more supplies on a sunday.
When we worked together it was non-stop work, ony a 15 minute break in the morning and 30 minutes for lunch. We used to leave the house in the dark - in summer - and get home in the dark. I used to fall asleep eating sometimes. We didn't have luxuries like mini-diggers: we dug out by hand, and if the lorry was away unloading we carried on digging, throwing the spoil into a heap on the road and then shovelling it off the road onto the back of the lorry when it returned. All the kerbs, slabs, bricks, etc that we had to use were unloaded by hand. The sacks of cement were large then, not those silly little things we have now. My dad could put one on his head, one under each arm and then someone would lay one over his back.
One of the guys wanted a telegraph pole for firewood that we had cut down - my dad said OK, but he would have to get it home himself. He came to the job with two pushbikes and that night him and his mate cycled off with it on their shoulders like a great long articulated lorry. One guy was so strong he could lift blacksmiths anvils unaided and giant drums of fuel oil. He'd never known anything but work all his life.
When I ran my own gangs I used to work alongside them. When we were reinstating trenches for British Gas we had miles of trench, just over a yard wide by 4 inches deep. In the summer we hired a road planer to roar out the temporary topping and relaid with a basecoat of hot rolled asphalt followed by a thinner, finer top coat of HRA and we got through up to 45 tons a day with one person on the broom, two on rakes, one on squeegee, one on a tandem roller and two with wheelbarrows - the blistering hot material was raked out of the back of a 15 tonner by one guy (if we were lucky - if not you had to rake it out onto your own barrow) and run back to the trench. That's some going for all-hand labour and at that thinness of laying.
There's hard work, my friend, and then there is really hard work. I still knock around with old guys that did that sort of work and am happy to be called 'kid' and 'boy' by them, and I'm twice your age and then some (and then a lot, actually).
Regards,
Neil
I agree. I have always been older than I was. It sucks now that I am actually old! :p
Say! That is a pretty short list for you, Neil! :rofl2:
It surely is - it only goes up to 23 yrs old, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sharptonn
I've been working hard all my life, I even played hard when I was a kid ......... :p
As to the steel custom makers use, I know that Robert Williams favors 01 but also uses others. Butch Harner has used 01 and for awhile was using that ball bearing steel, I forget the #. Mastro Livi has made ATS-34 among others, and lest I forget, I've got two of Robert's razors in S30-V. I might be wrong, but I think most of the makers, that aren't doing pattern welded steel, A.K.A. Damascus, are using 01. It is just real good to work with and makes a darn good straight razor.
Neil,
Sir, I do not doubt for one second you, or many of our fellow straight razor companions, have worked much, much harder than I. The work I have done in my time is not nearly the hardest work on the planet. I understand. I understand I am not the first nor the last to do what I have done.
I also understand that I have worked harder than many of the people who I know that are my age. Most of my fellow classmates were born with silver spoons. That's not their fault, and I am not judgmental. However, there is only so many things you can believe about someone when they complain of mowing their half acre yard. I have not moved mountains, but I am proud of my work ethic, the work I have done, and most importantly, learning while doing it. I don't deserve a DIY show, but I don't know many 21 year olds who can build fence, lay tile, put a 100 year old white oak down in the forest where you want it, grow a full garden and can food, and do it all correctly. I hope you'd agree with me on that, at least to some extent. I know many others who can do it better than I can, but in today's word, I think that is something that I know how. I have my father and all my jobs to thank for that.
I'm not trying to win a noble young adult award, and if I am coming off that way, I apologize. I am just proud of what I have done and always stand behind what I know I am capable of doing. I was 13 the summer I worked full time as a brick mason the laborer: the only laborer for a very quick moving mason. The term "come on boy, pack the mail" was used a lot :). I don't deserve a ribbon or a dozen cookies for that, but I an very proud I was able to do it, and did it well.
I respect what you, my father, older uncles, and others who worked hard in their time have done. Please believe that I do. I would simply ask you not to take away from me the work that I have done, and the knowledge and lifestyle that accompany. I always enjoy cutting up with older folks, especially my old man, about being "wet behind the ears." Even my father, the hardest worker I have ever met (not just a biased opinion) can and does commend me on being able to differentiate myself from my generation on the subject of working hard.
I could converse with you all day on the subject matter and even have a few "One time at this job," stories myself. We could most likely have many laughs in a conversion. Of that I am sure. Also, thank you for your posts about steel on this thread.
This post was, by no means, arguing with you.
Thanks,
Brandon
I appreciate that, Brandon, I really do.
I just don't know what prompted you to bring the subject up in the first place, but seeing as you did I thought I would have a go at replying to it, that's all.
You were lucky with your father - mine hardly ever had anything good to say about me. I was a bit of a tearaway, though (lap it up Tom, I know you know!). Compliments? Maybe one or two, but grudging. Usually just a 'hmm, not bad - could have been better'. Not that I'm taking anything away from him, he was a hard man is all. His father was worse. I can remember him ridiculing my father in front of me when I was little. My dad is much nicer and complimentary now that he has been retired for some time. He reckons I 'finally knuckled down' I think - not bad, when my own retirement isnt that far away...
Anyhow, friends, right?!
Regards,
Neil
:OT This is not the hardest work I ever did but hard enough. Started as a teenager and finished in middle age, thankfully. Hardest was working on shrimp boats out of Biloxi Miss when I was in my mid teens.
Attachment 149056
I originally brought it up because in my post to the Custom Razor makers of SRP, I mentioned calling myself young. It made me laugh and think of how I always joke with my parents about how old I feel like I'm getting.
The reason I feel my "hard work resume" is so short is because it stops at 17. After that, I started college and spent my summers doing engineering internships. Not something I believe I should feel shameful or sorry about. My parents have always told me to use a sharp mind to make my living, not a strong back. To save my back for my hobbies and my family. I suppose that is the source of my abrupt halt to "brow wiping work."
Of course friends, without a doubt.
Brandon
JImmy - do you remember that photo of you having your lunch sat on a girder high above the city - loved that photo!Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Regards,
Neil
Attachment 149059Neil, that is a famous photo, if we are thinking of the same one. Read the story of the photo and scrooll down for the interactive graphics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Lunch Atop a Skyscraper Photograph: The Story Behind the Famous Shot | History & Archaeology | Smithsonian Magazine
I have seen that one before Jimmy, but its not the one I was thinking about.
The one I had in mind is a pic of just you - I can't remember if you were sitting on the top of a beam, or right on the edge of the girder with your feet dangling over the edge.
You posted it on one of the defunct razor forums quite a while ago, if that helps, can't think of the name, but is was hosted by a guy who made fine razors...
Regards,
Neil
PS: He's got a bit of a neck, that Irish photographer in the article you linked to:
"...For the Irish filmmaker Seán Ó Cualáin, the mystery surrounding the photograph is a large part of its appeal. “There are so many unknowns,” he says. Who was the photographer? And who are the men?
“They could be anybody,” says Ó Cualáin. “We can all place ourselves on that beam. I think that is why the photograph works.”
It couldn't have been me! I can tell you that for nothing!
Moi? I would never! :dropjaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Nice link on that Photo, Jimmy. They were way too comfortable, I always thought!
It hangs in my barber's shop!
Tom
From some things that I have found, it seems as though stainless steels started being used for razors around the 1960s. However, the info that I have found mentions stainless being used for "razor blades" in general and vaguely. It also follows the telling of safety razors being popular in the 50s and decreasing barber straight shaves.
Does 1960s sound correct for stainless STRAIGHT razor blades?
If anyone could shed some specific info of the use of stainless steel in the shaving world, such as articles with semi-specific dates and not just estimations (around 1962=semi specific, 1960s and 70s=estimation), I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
The story of what we now call 'stainless' began in the Firth-Brown research lab. John Brown's company started in the 1840s making files. Thomas Firth was the top melter at Sanderson's crucible steel plant in the 1830s - he went on to found his own firm and supplied Samuel Colt with steel.
The two firms came together informally as Firth-Brown in 1902 and built their lab in 1908. Harry Brearly, a famed english metallurgist was employed to work on a method to improve arms steel, especially heat corrosion and adding chromium as an alloying agent. The experiments resulted in 'rustless ' steel, discovered before but commercially marketed in 1913 as stainless steel.
The Great War interrupted marketing, but it began again in earnest in the 1920s, and was used for all typesof things including cutlery, knives, razors, etc. Brearly resigned in 1915, but research continued and 'staybrite' was released in 1924, containing nickel as well as chromium.
In truth, stainless in all but name was made much earlier than this - in the latter part of the 1800s, by surgical instrument makers. Most surgical steels contain the alloys we associate with stainless, and as most cutlers who produced lancets, scalpels, etc also produced razors it is not uncommon to come across razors proudly pronouncing that they were made of surgical steel.
Regards,
Neil
Is there a "sweet spot" for razor hardness? What types of numbers to be people look for to balance edge longevity, ease of honing, and overall potential for sharpness. I know this is subjective, opinions will vary, it will vary blade to blade and hone to hone. I am just wondering what numbers people like to see when considering a purchase and what a custom razor maker would consider acceptable before continuing to process a blade. Hardness scale can be HRC or HV or whatever microhardness scale you gets you excited.
Also, responses can be given in reference to Carbon Steels AND Stainless Steels.
Thanks.
The short answer and probably the best is:Quote:
Originally Posted by broger
As long as the entire useful steel of the blade is at the same hardness, and over ~ 65+Rockwell C the shaves should be acceptable when that steel is properly honed.
Then...The harder the steel the longer the edge will last. I have razors over 62Rockwell C and they are a beast to hone and polish the edge properly but I have not had to re-hone them and my kids won't either. But, they are like glass and a drop would be catastrophic.
There also seems to be a co-relation between the crispness or comfort of the shave according to hardness. That is why some folks like the Sheffield Steel razors for "silky" shaves. The harder German and some French razors can be a bit too crisp. That, in my opinion due to the greater skill needed to produce a good smooth edge on those razors. They are more prone to micro-chipping.
Carbon and Stainless steels are much of a muchness at the hardness levels we speak of. The difference, in my opinion is that the stainless steels are in general a tougher and resilient steel. Makes them harder to hone to a smooth edge but they can hold an edge a very long time.
The advantage of stainless to me is that an occasional ride hard and put away wet will do less damage to the steel. They will corrode though so care is still required. I have seen and renewed really gross stainless HESS and Friodors and some edge breakdown was seen.
Metallurgy is a fascinating subject and a life long study to understand just what we already know.
~Richard
