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So I found a site that described how iwasaki managed to get his carbon content up to 1.2%+ in his tamahagane. He was able to achieve hrc 65+.
My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor? Harder than an american or british razor?
I'd be surprised if 'average' tamahagane razors would be very high HRC like Iwasaki san's. Certainly Nihonto were not & razors were often made as a sideline by the smith.Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagan
I might be wrong, but I would think that much hardness would be 'too much of a good thing.' Honing it would probably be a major ordeal to get to shave ready, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't 'chippy'.
Jimmy, I honed an Iwasaki western @ HV 860 which = about 65HRC. Just awesome steel, hard yet ductile, not chippy at all but did require a lot of time & trips back to the hones. Never at any point were the shave tests uncomfortable.
I'm no razor making expert but I'd have to agree with jimmyHAD, barring full wedges I think a 65HRC hollow ground blade would just chip/break.
There must be a reason why manufacturers don't temper to that degree of hardness because getting a carbon or stainless (H1 and ZDP189 to name but two stainless steels) would be no problem at all.
Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).
I beleive that tamahagane steel is only made so that the Japanese can keep their old traditions alive and for that I applaud them but by today's standards its nothing special at all, you could order a Bit of steel today for very little money which is capable of reaching 65HRC and over.
Actually the extensive work involved in making tamahagane blades is exactly what makes them very special, as an exceptional smith like Iwasaki could turn out 65-67HRC blades that don't chip because he had full control of the process & not in spite of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1011
It's absolutely not necesarry to make razors that hard but he did because he could. He simply had the skills to do it.
I've yet to see any modern smiths approach that with modern steels but I have seen razors claimed to be in the low 60's that were chippy on the hones.
Just because a steel can reach a high HRC does not mean it will make a good razor. Its more about the smith IMHO.
I think i'm going to go with a YASUKI STEEL imprinted kamisori, by Kaou(or new kaou). It appears to have almost none or very little hone wear. I would post a link but i'm afraid someone will buy it from under me. I'm putting the money in my account tomorrow to order so i'll post pictures then.
Anyone know of smith Kaou?
Precisely, the skill is with the smith and not the metal. The traditional Japanese smiths are without question probably the best in the world. Their Tamahagane steel however is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
The "extensive work" involved is the repeated folding of the tamahagane. This process serves two main functions. One is that it removes impurities from the steel and the second is to distribute the carbon content more evenley. A modern steel does not need to go through this process because it doesn't contain the impurities and the carbon content is already evenly distributed.
We may have to agree to disagree on this one and it may be like the natural vs synthetic debate but I maintain that in terms of an actual product, tamahagane is not an amazing mystical steel but does have a really cool name :D
My Tamahagane razors are too valuable to me to test their hardness, but I very much like how they shave and honing them was a pleasure (I have done it just once so far).
If one wants a Tamahagane razor and has the means to afford it, I think it is still a good idea to have some understanding of what that razor means and represents. It is probably not unlike using a real watch from say Audemars Piguet - there are many far cheaper and more precise ways to tell the time, if that is one's primary objective.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there :chapeauQuote:
Originally Posted by gugi
I believe vintage Iwasaki western style straight razors are Rockwell 67, even the modern knife maker from Japan Rockstead make some of their knives using carbon steel with a rockwell hardness of 66.
Tamahagane is special because it allows you to make a razor at very high hardness with no chipping issues. It takes time to hone correctly but not extraordinarily long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1011
I have honed two Western Tamahagane Iwasakis so far and I was more than impressed with the steel. This is really one of those things that one has to try to fully appreciate it.
They vary, each was individually tested and the hardness is printed on the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
Yeah, each Rockstead is tested individually.Quote:
Originally Posted by celticcrusader
My three are 66.3, 66.7 and 67.1 :)
They are quite alright to hone, nothing too special about that.
Three huh? Feel free to send one my way so you don't have all that treasure in one place. That's not safe :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Birnando
It is true. Tamahagane is a very plain steel, nearly entirely only iron and carbon. There were some alloys with vanadium and titanium but those were accidental and related to the ore source rather than metal chemistry manipulation. No one knew anything about what chemistry made those blades special, but the end-users did notice some performance differences and the smiths reputation gained as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1011
Tamahagane as smelted averages a carbon content between 1.4-1.6%. Much to high for most blades. I would have said that Iwasaki was good in that he didn't burn out so much carbon, not that he was able to control the addition of carbon. But, he knew how to if he wanted. Charcoal fires are remarkably tune-able and a good smith can do very interesting things to steel in one of them. A typical nihonto is somewhere between 0.6-0.7% carbon as dictated by tradition. Hamon are better in that range and more survive that brutal water quench. The reality is that the smith averages the carbon content downward from what is smelted.
If anyone wants the razor i was hiding is here
U198 RARE J apanese Straight Razor Sword New Kaou | eBay
I see a razor by same smith, similar condition going for $200 so someone should swoop that. I decided to upgrade, about to post thread.
How is that related to the topic of Tamahagane?Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagan
It's related to my other post.
It's MY thread.
The thread was about me choosing a kamisori, and their different hardness, not really tamahagane at all.
It has plenty to do with the REAL topic. So please, go away.
You sure are a nice guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagan
In your OP you say
What you linked is not one of them, thus my question above.Quote:
My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor?
If you like to argue I am all for it, but I think you have a lot to learn before you are qualified.
Hunter...congrats on getting the razor you ultimately desired...
Secondly, the Gentleman you are insulting is actually quite knowledgeable in the area of kamisori and Western japanese Straights. We try to avoid insulting behavior on this site...I am not a Mod, but rather just another member like you. If I was out of line in my discussion and decorum, I would expect someone to point it out to me as I am pointing out to you. Please understand...we ALL live here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagan
Just an observation - you are well along the path where most of the extremely knowledgeable people are not willing to help you. You may think that this is your own problem, but it isn't - this site is about helping people and we intend to keep it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterHagan