Thread: Tamahagane Question

So I found a site that described how iwasaki managed to get his carbon content up to 1.2%+ in his tamahagane. He was able to achieve hrc 65+.

My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor? Harder than an american or british razor?

Originally Posted by HunterHagan

So I found a site that described how iwasaki managed to get his carbon content up to 1.2%+ in his tamahagane. He was able to achieve hrc 65+.

My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor? Harder than an american or british razor?

I'd be surprised if 'average' tamahagane razors would be very high HRC like Iwasaki san's. Certainly Nihonto were not & razors were often made as a sideline by the smith.

I might be wrong, but I would think that much hardness would be 'too much of a good thing.' Honing it would probably be a major ordeal to get to shave ready, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't 'chippy'.

Jimmy, I honed an Iwasaki western @ HV 860 which = about 65HRC. Just awesome steel, hard yet ductile, not chippy at all but did require a lot of time & trips back to the hones. Never at any point were the shave tests uncomfortable.

I'm no razor making expert but I'd have to agree with jimmyHAD, barring full wedges I think a 65HRC hollow ground blade would just chip/break.

There must be a reason why manufacturers don't temper to that degree of hardness because getting a carbon or stainless (H1 and ZDP189 to name but two stainless steels) would be no problem at all.

Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

I beleive that tamahagane steel is only made so that the Japanese can keep their old traditions alive and for that I applaud them but by today's standards its nothing special at all, you could order a Bit of steel today for very little money which is capable of reaching 65HRC and over.

Originally Posted by mike1011

Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

Actually the extensive work involved in making tamahagane blades is exactly what makes them very special, as an exceptional smith like Iwasaki could turn out 65-67HRC blades that don't chip because he had full control of the process & not in spite of it.

It's absolutely not necesarry to make razors that hard but he did because he could. He simply had the skills to do it.
I've yet to see any modern smiths approach that with modern steels but I have seen razors claimed to be in the low 60's that were chippy on the hones.

Just because a steel can reach a high HRC does not mean it will make a good razor. Its more about the smith IMHO.

I think i'm going to go with a YASUKI STEEL imprinted kamisori, by Kaou(or new kaou). It appears to have almost none or very little hone wear. I would post a link but i'm afraid someone will buy it from under me. I'm putting the money in my account tomorrow to order so i'll post pictures then.

Anyone know of smith Kaou?

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just because a steel can reach a high HRC does not mean it will make a good razor. Its more about the smith IMHO.

Precisely, the skill is with the smith and not the metal. The traditional Japanese smiths are without question probably the best in the world. Their Tamahagane steel however is not.

The "extensive work" involved is the repeated folding of the tamahagane. This process serves two main functions. One is that it removes impurities from the steel and the second is to distribute the carbon content more evenley. A modern steel does not need to go through this process because it doesn't contain the impurities and the carbon content is already evenly distributed.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one and it may be like the natural vs synthetic debate but I maintain that in terms of an actual product, tamahagane is not an amazing mystical steel but does have a really cool name

My Tamahagane razors are too valuable to me to test their hardness, but I very much like how they shave and honing them was a pleasure (I have done it just once so far).

If one wants a Tamahagane razor and has the means to afford it, I think it is still a good idea to have some understanding of what that razor means and represents. It is probably not unlike using a real watch from say Audemars Piguet - there are many far cheaper and more precise ways to tell the time, if that is one's primary objective.

Originally Posted by gugi

My Tamahagane razors are too valuable to me to test their hardness, but I very much like how they shave and honing them was a pleasure (I have done it just once so far).

If one wants a Tamahagane razor and has the means to afford it, I think it is still a good idea to have some understanding of what that razor means and represents. It is probably not unlike using a real watch from say Audemars Piguet - there are many far cheaper and more precise ways to tell the time, if that is one's primary objective.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there