Thread: Tamahagane Question

So I found a site that described how iwasaki managed to get his carbon content up to 1.2%+ in his tamahagane. He was able to achieve hrc 65+.

My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor? Harder than an american or british razor?

Originally Posted by HunterHagan

So I found a site that described how iwasaki managed to get his carbon content up to 1.2%+ in his tamahagane. He was able to achieve hrc 65+.

My question is in regards to tamahagane razors by lesser/unknown smiths(the ones we can afford). What rockwell hardness is your average tamahagane kamisori style razor? Harder than an american or british razor?

I'd be surprised if 'average' tamahagane razors would be very high HRC like Iwasaki san's. Certainly Nihonto were not & razors were often made as a sideline by the smith.

I might be wrong, but I would think that much hardness would be 'too much of a good thing.' Honing it would probably be a major ordeal to get to shave ready, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't 'chippy'.

Jimmy, I honed an Iwasaki western @ HV 860 which = about 65HRC. Just awesome steel, hard yet ductile, not chippy at all but did require a lot of time & trips back to the hones. Never at any point were the shave tests uncomfortable.

I'm no razor making expert but I'd have to agree with jimmyHAD, barring full wedges I think a 65HRC hollow ground blade would just chip/break.

There must be a reason why manufacturers don't temper to that degree of hardness because getting a carbon or stainless (H1 and ZDP189 to name but two stainless steels) would be no problem at all.

Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

I beleive that tamahagane steel is only made so that the Japanese can keep their old traditions alive and for that I applaud them but by today's standards its nothing special at all, you could order a Bit of steel today for very little money which is capable of reaching 65HRC and over.

Originally Posted by mike1011

Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

Actually the extensive work involved in making tamahagane blades is exactly what makes them very special, as an exceptional smith like Iwasaki could turn out 65-67HRC blades that don't chip because he had full control of the process & not in spite of it.

It's absolutely not necesarry to make razors that hard but he did because he could. He simply had the skills to do it.
I've yet to see any modern smiths approach that with modern steels but I have seen razors claimed to be in the low 60's that were chippy on the hones.

Just because a steel can reach a high HRC does not mean it will make a good razor. Its more about the smith IMHO.

Originally Posted by mike1011

I'm no razor making expert but I'd have to agree with jimmyHAD, barring full wedges I think a 65HRC hollow ground blade would just chip/break.

There must be a reason why manufacturers don't temper to that degree of hardness because getting a carbon or stainless (H1 and ZDP189 to name but two stainless steels) would be no problem at all.

Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

I beleive that tamahagane steel is only made so that the Japanese can keep their old traditions alive and for that I applaud them but by today's standards its nothing special at all, you could order a Bit of steel today for very little money which is capable of reaching 65HRC and over.

Tamahagane is special because it allows you to make a razor at very high hardness with no chipping issues. It takes time to hone correctly but not extraordinarily long time.
I have honed two Western Tamahagane Iwasakis so far and I was more than impressed with the steel. This is really one of those things that one has to try to fully appreciate it.

Originally Posted by mike1011

...Beyond having a really cool name tamahagane steel isn't really very special at all. In fact in its raw form its actually very poor and requires extensive processing by folding to get it into a use able form. In its day it was a pretty impressive feat to be able to produce it, a bit like the ulfbert Viking swords which were made from crucible steel (after the Vikings this type of steel would not be seen again in Europe for 1000 years).

I beleive that tamahagane steel is only made so that the Japanese can keep their old traditions alive and for that I applaud them but by today's standards its nothing special at all, you could order a Bit of steel today for very little money which is capable of reaching 65HRC and over.

It is true. Tamahagane is a very plain steel, nearly entirely only iron and carbon. There were some alloys with vanadium and titanium but those were accidental and related to the ore source rather than metal chemistry manipulation. No one knew anything about what chemistry made those blades special, but the end-users did notice some performance differences and the smiths reputation gained as a result.

Tamahagane as smelted averages a carbon content between 1.4-1.6%. Much to high for most blades. I would have said that Iwasaki was good in that he didn't burn out so much carbon, not that he was able to control the addition of carbon. But, he knew how to if he wanted. Charcoal fires are remarkably tune-able and a good smith can do very interesting things to steel in one of them. A typical nihonto is somewhere between 0.6-0.7% carbon as dictated by tradition. Hamon are better in that range and more survive that brutal water quench. The reality is that the smith averages the carbon content downward from what is smelted.