Laminated steel on frameback J.A. Hellberg?

Hi,

One of my last purchases includes a frameback J.A. Hellberg
It has laminated steel as seen on pics, I first thought it wasn't real but
after polishing one side, the pattern didn't disappear, it even came more to life,
it's very hard steel and easy to get a incredible sharp edge! I have never had a razor that is SO SHARP,and easy to hone, really HHT 5!

Attachment 184343Attachment 184344Attachment 184345Attachment 184346


When googling, I found no "laminated Swedish frameback's"

Does anyone know anything about them?

The razor has "Trolhätte Diamond steel" stamped on the spine,
I need to clean it up more, and put some new scales on it, couldn't wait to post this... :)

Thanks!

If truly Laminted,put some ferric chloride on it,will make it truly show the laminations.

I don’t think that it is laminated in the modern sense (the deliberate use of different steel alloys to produce contrasting layers, i.e. pattern welding).

Rather it is an artefact of the steel production, using the cementation process to form blister steel bars, which were then processed into shear steel by forge welding (Cementation process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Crucible steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia @ blister steel).

I believe the subtle pattern is due to the very slight difference in the alloy (as a result of the impurities) of each of the blister steel bars. This effect (and the cause) is similar to that seen in traditional Japanese swords.

The ferric chloride isn't really needed, but if you did use some, the stuff that is there will show up better than it does now. Polish out all those scratches first. The eye has seen the pattern. I think this stuff is pretty cool. I really enjoy the subtlety of the bands.

The material is most likely crucible steel of some kind and the feature you can clearly see is called alloy banding. There are several ways this could occur but it's not from laminating steels together as the modern pattern welders do it.

One possibility is that this is a form of shear steel but I'd give that an outside chance when alloy banding can occur with a lot less work. Strangely enough the alloy bands can be manipulated in the same fashion that PW makers can make pools or eyes or ladders.

Very cool razor.

I think using a little FC would make that blade Really pop.JMO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

If truly Laminted,put some ferric chloride on it,will make it truly show the laminations.

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Thanks! Do you mean like "Rouge"?
I already started with diamond polish, rouge and the blue final "rouge", but it tends to shine a lot, and at this moment the pattern
doesn't show more than before... I also tried a very small piece of hazuya stone, but I'm still inexperienced, and it gave small
scratches... Could it be helpful if I make a powder first from the stone?
The pattern has the tendency to become clearer when the metal oxydices, when it become a bit more darker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrDalton

I don’t think that it is laminated in the modern sense (the deliberate use of different steel alloys to produce contrasting layers, i.e. pattern welding).

Rather it is an artefact of the steel production, using the cementation process to form blister steel bars, which were then processed into shear steel by forge welding (Cementation process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Crucible steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia @ blister steel).

I believe the subtle pattern is due to the very slight difference in the alloy (as a result of the impurities) of each of the blister steel bars. This effect (and the cause) is similar to that seen in traditional Japanese swords.

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Very interesting! If this is such metal, should it be rather soft, or is it perfectly possible that this metal is really hard?
I've restored quit a few razors now, and the scratches aren't easy to remove, very hard metal indeed!

Thanks for the link, like it very much!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

The ferric chloride isn't really needed, but if you did use some, the stuff that is there will show up better than it does now. Polish out all those scratches first. The eye has seen the pattern. I think this stuff is pretty cool. I really enjoy the subtlety of the bands.

The material is most likely crucible steel of some kind and the feature you can clearly see is called alloy banding. There are several ways this could occur but it's not from laminating steels together as the modern pattern welders do it.

One possibility is that this is a form of shear steel but I'd give that an outside chance when alloy banding can occur with a lot less work. Strangely enough the alloy bands can be manipulated in the same fashion that PW makers can make pools or eyes or ladders.

Very cool razor.

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Thanks! A thing that strikes me is that the bands are only in the dark part, it doesn't seem to be in the part of the tang.
Is this procedure known somewhere, I mean, have you seen this on other Swedish razors?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fikira

Thanks! Do you mean like "Rouge"?
I already started with diamond polish, rouge and the blue final "rouge", but it tends to shine a lot, and at this moment the pattern
doesn't show more than before... I also tried a very small piece of hazuya stone, but I'm still inexperienced, and it gave small
scratches... Could it be helpful if I make a powder first from the stone?
The pattern has the tendency to become clearer when the metal oxydices, when it become a bit more darker

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No, Ferric chloride is an acid solution (an etchant)I have no clue where you are located but Radio shack has it.
Maybe something else would work (Lemon juice??)

Ferric chloride can also be found at art supply stores. Ask for etchant for copper. FeCl3 is the chemical nomenclature.

Lemon juice is a pretty light etchant, but the Indonesians used it to good effect on their Kris blades.

Another option is warmed vinegar. Just warm enough to sizzle in the pan a little and wipe on with a paper towel. Mind the heat on your fingers. It will gray the steel a little, but enough to highlight the pattern.

I suspect you will see the banded pattern on the tang if you etch things. Razors are too small to avoid heat traveling into the tang when forging. I think you'll find some there.

Either way, alloy banding from cycles through the forging process, or shear steel from blister and the subsequent forging and you have a very fine blade of very good steel. If this is shear steel, it's much older than it looks. There are both positive arguments and negative against the effects of alloy banding. It does suggest some overheating at some point if it is alloy segregation.

I don't think any of those will affect your shave with this razor. Enjoy the aesthetic appearance. Your beard won't care a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

No, Ferric chloride is an acid solution (an etchant)I have no clue where you are located but Radio shack has it.
Maybe something else would work (Lemon juice??)

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Well, I'm from Belgium, but I like the idea very much! I will see what I can do and will post the pics when ready.
Please excuse me that it will take me more then a few days, I only can do a little each day, very excited though!
Thank you all for such great and very interesting helpful answers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Ferric chloride can also be found at art supply stores. Ask for etchant for copper. FeCl3 is the chemical nomenclature.

Lemon juice is a pretty light etchant, but the Indonesians used it to good effect on their Kris blades.

Another option is warmed vinegar. Just warm enough to sizzle in the pan a little and wipe on with a paper towel. Mind the heat on your fingers. It will gray the steel a little, but enough to highlight the pattern.

I suspect you will see the banded pattern on the tang if you etch things. Razors are too small to avoid heat traveling into the tang when forging. I think you'll find some there.

Either way, alloy banding from cycles through the forging process, or shear steel from blister and the subsequent forging and you have a very fine blade of very good steel. If this is shear steel, it's much older than it looks. There are both positive arguments and negative against the effects of alloy banding. It does suggest some overheating at some point if it is alloy segregation.

I don't think any of those will affect your shave with this razor. Enjoy the aesthetic appearance. Your beard won't care a bit.

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Great! I will see in the further restoration if I can find more of the pattern on the rest of the blade, will see
what I will use to highlight the banding, excited!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fikira

Well, I'm from Belgium, but I like the idea very much! I will see what I can do and will post the pics when ready.
Please excuse me that it will take me more then a few days, I only can do a little each day, very excited though!
Thank you all for such great and very interesting helpful answers!

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If I should use lemon juice, does anyone know how long the steel needs to make contact with it?
I guess I need to rinse the juice of, but do I need to polish it again afterwards?

Thanks!

This is one of those areas where the final point is what your eye says it will be. Lemon juice is not an aggressive acid and I would suggest this process will take more time than another acid. You're less likely to make a mistake and go too far.

You can always polish again after each juice treatment. You might find you like the acid patinated look, or you might like the polished after etching look. Experiment. Enjoy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

This is one of those areas where the final point is what your eye says it will be. Lemon juice is not an aggressive acid and I would suggest this process will take more time than another acid. You're less likely to make a mistake and go too far.

You can always polish again after each juice treatment. You might find you like the acid patinated look, or you might like the polished after etching look. Experiment. Enjoy.

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Sounds good, thanks for the tips!
I had my first experiment with vinegar, seemed to work very well, the only setback I experienced is staining.
I've got a suspicion that the reason is my degreasing, first I used aceton and then alcohol with chlorhex, the last gave discolorations
here and there when it evaporated, I think (hope) that's the reason the vinegar reacted different on these area's, have you got
the same experiences? What do you use for degreasing? (I think degreasing is important to get the grease off from the diamond polish)

My intent is now to do this with the lemon juice
May I ask why warm vinegar would be preferable to cold vinegar (for the first experiment I used room temperature vinegar for 10')

Kindest regards

Warm vinegar will cut faster than cold vinegar.

So here are the final results,
I made some new scales (first time, sorry for the mistakes here and there...)
and let the vinegar do its thing, I don't seem to get the darkening completely even, so be it...
I removed the "spine", put 24u epoxy in between it to prevent water getting under, which previously was the case
What I've learned is that it is best to do that before the darkening, residue of the epoxy tends to give more darkening and "blueing"

It was a very nice experience!

Attachment 185455Attachment 185456Attachment 185457Attachment 185458Attachment 185459Attachment 185460

Her are some pics with the "spine" removed

Attachment 185461Attachment 185462Attachment 185463Attachment 185464

And finally some pics (after vinegar treatment of blade and tang) that show that the lamination is mostly on the blade itself, only a little on the tang, there it resembles a more cloudy shape, on the blade it resembles more stripes

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I have a very similar hellberg at home, i will try to remember to see if it's the same. But it will be a few weeks.
I just pop the spine off and give it a wipe from time to time.

That would be interesting to know! Thanks

Indeed, I guess that is also a good solution I guess :)

I use a mix of vinegar lemon juice 75/25 lemon being 25, soak for an hour or so, check where the color is may need a bit more for the color, wash it in baking soda water then lightly polish the high spots with 1.5k or higher. I etch 1095 Damascus this way work well. I use a chamber I made pvc tubing, a cap, airline an airstone and aquarium pump to keep the mix agitated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrDalton

I don’t think that it is laminated in the modern sense (the deliberate use of different steel alloys to produce contrasting layers, i.e. pattern welding).

Rather it is an artefact of the steel production, using the cementation process to form blister steel bars, which were then processed into shear steel by forge welding (Cementation process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Crucible steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia @ blister steel).

I believe the subtle pattern is due to the very slight difference in the alloy (as a result of the impurities) of each of the blister steel bars. This effect (and the cause) is similar to that seen in traditional Japanese swords.

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This is very interesting! I love history & old pics...........

Take care or the framebacks, please..

I would love to have one. I have several Swedish straights, two of them Hellberg's but not framebacks. I have a Jon Engstrom brass frameback which is a nice little razor. I have a few C.V. Heljestrand's. I'll have to be for the lookout for one. It's a cool razor!

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Originally Posted by Frameback

Take care or the framebacks, please..

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Absolutely! Especially this one :angel:

I reviewed the pictures. That's blister steel for sure.

This thread brought this old ad to mind!


You cannot see it in the blades, at least I cannot!

No question that wire rope, or the like, has been used as material. The pattern in the frameback shown earlier is too random, and less like the expected pattern seen in wire materials. OTOH, if wire is welded and folded, by the time four welds have occurred the pattern will be much more like random and look a lot less like wire.

Plus heavy polishing can obscure the provenance of the material in such cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

I reviewed the pictures. That's blister steel for sure.

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Thanks a lot guys!
I learned a lot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

This thread brought this old ad to mind!


You cannot see it in the blades, at least I cannot!

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Indeed, I had also such a razor (it has a new home now), I also didn't see a pattern at all!
Nice razor though!

When I was blacksmithing I made several cable forge welded knives. I think it is easier to get good welds with regular flat stock. If you want to try cable blades be sure to get solid core cable. Some cable has a rope core and won't work.

Slawman