Thread: Laminated steel on frameback J.A. Hellberg?

Hi,

One of my last purchases includes a frameback J.A. Hellberg
It has laminated steel as seen on pics, I first thought it wasn't real but
after polishing one side, the pattern didn't disappear, it even came more to life,
it's very hard steel and easy to get a incredible sharp edge! I have never had a razor that is SO SHARP,and easy to hone, really HHT 5!




When googling, I found no "laminated Swedish frameback's"

Does anyone know anything about them?

The razor has "Trolhätte Diamond steel" stamped on the spine,
I need to clean it up more, and put some new scales on it, couldn't wait to post this...

Thanks!

If truly Laminted,put some ferric chloride on it,will make it truly show the laminations.

I don’t think that it is laminated in the modern sense (the deliberate use of different steel alloys to produce contrasting layers, i.e. pattern welding).

Rather it is an artefact of the steel production, using the cementation process to form blister steel bars, which were then processed into shear steel by forge welding (Cementation process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Crucible steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia @ blister steel).

I believe the subtle pattern is due to the very slight difference in the alloy (as a result of the impurities) of each of the blister steel bars. This effect (and the cause) is similar to that seen in traditional Japanese swords.

The ferric chloride isn't really needed, but if you did use some, the stuff that is there will show up better than it does now. Polish out all those scratches first. The eye has seen the pattern. I think this stuff is pretty cool. I really enjoy the subtlety of the bands.

The material is most likely crucible steel of some kind and the feature you can clearly see is called alloy banding. There are several ways this could occur but it's not from laminating steels together as the modern pattern welders do it.

One possibility is that this is a form of shear steel but I'd give that an outside chance when alloy banding can occur with a lot less work. Strangely enough the alloy bands can be manipulated in the same fashion that PW makers can make pools or eyes or ladders.

Very cool razor.

I think using a little FC would make that blade Really pop.JMO

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

If truly Laminted,put some ferric chloride on it,will make it truly show the laminations.

Thanks! Do you mean like "Rouge"?
I already started with diamond polish, rouge and the blue final "rouge", but it tends to shine a lot, and at this moment the pattern
doesn't show more than before... I also tried a very small piece of hazuya stone, but I'm still inexperienced, and it gave small
scratches... Could it be helpful if I make a powder first from the stone?
The pattern has the tendency to become clearer when the metal oxydices, when it become a bit more darker

Originally Posted by DrDalton

I don’t think that it is laminated in the modern sense (the deliberate use of different steel alloys to produce contrasting layers, i.e. pattern welding).

Rather it is an artefact of the steel production, using the cementation process to form blister steel bars, which were then processed into shear steel by forge welding (Cementation process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Crucible steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia @ blister steel).

I believe the subtle pattern is due to the very slight difference in the alloy (as a result of the impurities) of each of the blister steel bars. This effect (and the cause) is similar to that seen in traditional Japanese swords.

Very interesting! If this is such metal, should it be rather soft, or is it perfectly possible that this metal is really hard?
I've restored quit a few razors now, and the scratches aren't easy to remove, very hard metal indeed!

Thanks for the link, like it very much!

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

The ferric chloride isn't really needed, but if you did use some, the stuff that is there will show up better than it does now. Polish out all those scratches first. The eye has seen the pattern. I think this stuff is pretty cool. I really enjoy the subtlety of the bands.

The material is most likely crucible steel of some kind and the feature you can clearly see is called alloy banding. There are several ways this could occur but it's not from laminating steels together as the modern pattern welders do it.

One possibility is that this is a form of shear steel but I'd give that an outside chance when alloy banding can occur with a lot less work. Strangely enough the alloy bands can be manipulated in the same fashion that PW makers can make pools or eyes or ladders.

Very cool razor.

Thanks! A thing that strikes me is that the bands are only in the dark part, it doesn't seem to be in the part of the tang.
Is this procedure known somewhere, I mean, have you seen this on other Swedish razors?

Originally Posted by Fikira

Thanks! Do you mean like "Rouge"?
I already started with diamond polish, rouge and the blue final "rouge", but it tends to shine a lot, and at this moment the pattern
doesn't show more than before... I also tried a very small piece of hazuya stone, but I'm still inexperienced, and it gave small
scratches... Could it be helpful if I make a powder first from the stone?
The pattern has the tendency to become clearer when the metal oxydices, when it become a bit more darker

No, Ferric chloride is an acid solution (an etchant)I have no clue where you are located but Radio shack has it.
Maybe something else would work (Lemon juice??)

Ferric chloride can also be found at art supply stores. Ask for etchant for copper. FeCl3 is the chemical nomenclature.

Lemon juice is a pretty light etchant, but the Indonesians used it to good effect on their Kris blades.

Another option is warmed vinegar. Just warm enough to sizzle in the pan a little and wipe on with a paper towel. Mind the heat on your fingers. It will gray the steel a little, but enough to highlight the pattern.

I suspect you will see the banded pattern on the tang if you etch things. Razors are too small to avoid heat traveling into the tang when forging. I think you'll find some there.

Either way, alloy banding from cycles through the forging process, or shear steel from blister and the subsequent forging and you have a very fine blade of very good steel. If this is shear steel, it's much older than it looks. There are both positive arguments and negative against the effects of alloy banding. It does suggest some overheating at some point if it is alloy segregation.

I don't think any of those will affect your shave with this razor. Enjoy the aesthetic appearance. Your beard won't care a bit.