Stubtail Birks 18th Century

Hi, I've acquired a nice old razor with a mark, that I don't recognise, and with these markings on the spine:

"WMN? BIRKS"

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I was wondering which Birks this could be, could this be a William Birks (Master Cutler 1766), father of William and John Birks?

Also have another razor with markings that are quite similar, but not the same I guess, don't know if there is a connection between the two...

Attachment 199580Attachment 199581Attachment 199582

I know they need a good clean up, but I though I'd share it already :p

By the way, has anyone seen those strange collars / washers before?

just a swag:
old Roman coinage??
~Richard

Whatever it is, it sure is a cool find!


Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geezer

just a swag:
old Roman coinage??
~Richard

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Nice! Thanks for the input!

Well, I have some more detailed pictures here, and now I can see a resemblance of a Griffon in there, head pointed to the left (first picture) with 2 wings, 4 paws and a long tail... Maybe I'm dreaming I don't know...
Either way, the first picture shows that it isn't original, it shows marks of the previous, larger collars / washers, also the fact that it is clearly re-pinned / rescaled (hole in tang) confirms this

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Update:

Since one of the collars was missing, I had to remove the pin (and change the collars in the future) and it gave me a better look at the other side, it was apparently stamped out

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Mystery! :shrug::hmmm::)

Those are unusual, Fikira, and very nice!

I must admit that I have not ever seen those marks on a Birks razor before - plenty of other marks throughout their history, but not this. The razors look almost french, and I would bet that the bone-scaled one definitely is due to the absence of a tail and the pivot hole being so high up on the tang sans tail.

The bone scales are replacements - old, replacements or broken at the pivot and shortened. They are obviously too short to accommodate the razor so that it closes correctly, hence another hole has been drilled in the tang, leaving the original high up on the tang in the vintage french fashion.

It would seem that the original marks were the the maltese cross and star that Rodgers were later to acquire:

Attachment 199847

and that the other mark was a tobbaco pipe, as seen in this early trade card (or rather a draft trade card - spot the error/omission!):

Attachment 199848

This goes into great detail about the mark, saying that he had it for '...upwards of 50 years...' and complaining about others copying his products.

In the Sheffield Directory of 1787 another mark is recorded along with the pipe:

Attachment 199849

but that does not look the same as yours.

Another thing...I know it is very difficult to make out hand-struck marks, especially ones as old as these, but that does not look like "WMN" on the spine of the first razor - looks a bit like "MMN" to me and lord knows what that offset small oval on its side next to the three letters is supposed to mean!

Regards,
Neil

Neil,

Thank you very much for this information!
I'm again honored!

Yes, I also found the history of the "Star - Maltese cross",thanks, but some had different marks apparently

It has indeed troubled me that the letters seem more like MMWo than a WMN, but the "Birks" lead me to seek at a name that would
match the letters, hence the "William", but indeed, it doesn't really look this way...

A very logical statement that you made there about the scales and the making of an extra hole in the tang sans tail! Great!

I also didn't thought of a french direction before! That IS very interesting!
I search in the 1798-1799 Almanach du commerce de Paris (maybe a bit too young), no Birks there with the couteliers...
Also the "marques et poincons" site gave me nothing of a clue

The "Zinc plate of Thiers 1810" (also a bit young but hey...), and the famous plaque of cutlers marks in Châtellerault didn't show such a mark BUT I could easily missed something AND all those references are probably too young for this razor!

Still a mystery, but very interesting! Thanks again!
VERY happy to have you around!

Most kindest regards,

Jethro

Could it also be possible that the scales are "original" but that one of the previous owners rather wanted it to fit better into the scales?

Attachment 199913

I don't know why, but I've seen several razors that didn't "fit" like we would like it to be, but they were made that way I suppose?

Example:
"ATAT"
This one hits the pin!

Attachment 199908
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and the "Geo. Smith" of the other thread:

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Most kindest regards,

An update:

Cleaned it, transferred the one collar to the "Showing" side, and replaced the missing one with a different collar / washer, of coarse not the same, but I really don't have an idea how to reproduce the "original" collars...

I honed it very easily on the coticule with 2 layers of tape, and it gave a nice HHT 4 after less then 10 minutes, tomorrow the shave :D

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I don't know about the 'Atat' Fikira, but the Smith scales have been shortened and reworked. They probably had a split at the wedge end, and have been re-profiled - hence the weird shape, and the top looks too flat, probably filed down.

With regard to the collars/washers on your razor that look like coins, I think that they are not original to those scales - you can see ghost oulines of a larger boss washer on one of your close-ups. Also, at the pivot the washer is very large - too large. If the scales were the proper length they would have been even thinner and the boss washer would have overshot both sides at the pivot. In some forms of french razor scales from this period it was common to have a smaller boss at the pivot pinning and a large one - extremely large - at the wedge pinning - I have several myself like that.

The washers/collars you have look to me that they were intended as buttons. They were stamped out of thin metal - usually a copper alloy like brass - and the sides curled over thin support discs that may have been metal discs with soldered eyelet, or some other material. The point of these is that there is no hole in the brass bit to spoil the decorative design. They were very common in victorian and pre-victorian times.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

With regard to the collars/washers on your razor that look like coins, I think that they are not original to those scales - you can see ghost oulines of a larger boss washer on one of your close-ups. Also, at the pivot the washer is very large - too large.

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Thank you for confirming my statement (post #5)
Your information makes things more clear for me, thank you very much for this!

Also very nice to know that the "buttons" are maybe that old!

Thank you very much once again!

Regards,

Jethro

It's a pleasure Jethro! Please tell us if you ever find out whose mark that is.

Meanwhile, enjoy your wonderful razor.

Regards,
Jethro

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

It's a pleasure Jethro! Please tell us if you ever find out whose mark that is.

Meanwhile, enjoy your wonderful razor.

Regards,
Jethro

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I most certainly will!

:tu

Just for the record, it is a Henry Birks, made between 1720-1752!

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/birks/

😉

I absolutely love threads like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joelkerr

I absolutely love threads like this.

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If you look at other posts by the late Neil Miller you will see a lot of history. His strops were pieces of art.