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Thread: Stubtail Birks 18th Century

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Fikira's Avatar
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    Default Stubtail Birks 18th Century

    Hi, I've acquired a nice old razor with a mark, that I don't recognise, and with these markings on the spine:

    "WMN? BIRKS"

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    I was wondering which Birks this could be, could this be a William Birks (Master Cutler 1766), father of William and John Birks?

    Also have another razor with markings that are quite similar, but not the same I guess, don't know if there is a connection between the two...

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    I know they need a good clean up, but I though I'd share it already

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Fikira's Avatar
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    By the way, has anyone seen those strange collars / washers before?

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    Senior Member blabbermouth Geezer's Avatar
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    just a swag:
    old Roman coinage??
    ~Richard
    Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
    - Oscar Wilde

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    Whatever it is, it sure is a cool find!


    Mike
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    Senior Member Fikira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    just a swag:
    old Roman coinage??
    ~Richard
    Nice! Thanks for the input!

    Well, I have some more detailed pictures here, and now I can see a resemblance of a Griffon in there, head pointed to the left (first picture) with 2 wings, 4 paws and a long tail... Maybe I'm dreaming I don't know...
    Either way, the first picture shows that it isn't original, it shows marks of the previous, larger collars / washers, also the fact that it is clearly re-pinned / rescaled (hole in tang) confirms this

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    Update:

    Since one of the collars was missing, I had to remove the pin (and change the collars in the future) and it gave me a better look at the other side, it was apparently stamped out

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    Mystery!
    Last edited by Fikira; 04-29-2015 at 08:18 AM.

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Those are unusual, Fikira, and very nice!

    I must admit that I have not ever seen those marks on a Birks razor before - plenty of other marks throughout their history, but not this. The razors look almost french, and I would bet that the bone-scaled one definitely is due to the absence of a tail and the pivot hole being so high up on the tang sans tail.

    The bone scales are replacements - old, replacements or broken at the pivot and shortened. They are obviously too short to accommodate the razor so that it closes correctly, hence another hole has been drilled in the tang, leaving the original high up on the tang in the vintage french fashion.

    It would seem that the original marks were the the maltese cross and star that Rodgers were later to acquire:

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    and that the other mark was a tobbaco pipe, as seen in this early trade card (or rather a draft trade card - spot the error/omission!):

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    This goes into great detail about the mark, saying that he had it for '...upwards of 50 years...' and complaining about others copying his products.

    In the Sheffield Directory of 1787 another mark is recorded along with the pipe:

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    but that does not look the same as yours.

    Another thing...I know it is very difficult to make out hand-struck marks, especially ones as old as these, but that does not look like "WMN" on the spine of the first razor - looks a bit like "MMN" to me and lord knows what that offset small oval on its side next to the three letters is supposed to mean!

    Regards,
    Neil
    Last edited by Neil Miller; 04-29-2015 at 06:57 PM. Reason: additional info
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    Senior Member Fikira's Avatar
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    Neil,

    Thank you very much for this information!
    I'm again honored!

    Yes, I also found the history of the "Star - Maltese cross",thanks, but some had different marks apparently

    It has indeed troubled me that the letters seem more like MMWo than a WMN, but the "Birks" lead me to seek at a name that would
    match the letters, hence the "William", but indeed, it doesn't really look this way...

    A very logical statement that you made there about the scales and the making of an extra hole in the tang sans tail! Great!

    I also didn't thought of a french direction before! That IS very interesting!
    I search in the 1798-1799 Almanach du commerce de Paris (maybe a bit too young), no Birks there with the couteliers...
    Also the "marques et poincons" site gave me nothing of a clue

    The "Zinc plate of Thiers 1810" (also a bit young but hey...), and the famous plaque of cutlers marks in Châtellerault didn't show such a mark BUT I could easily missed something AND all those references are probably too young for this razor!

    Still a mystery, but very interesting! Thanks again!
    VERY happy to have you around!

    Most kindest regards,

    Jethro
    Last edited by Fikira; 04-30-2015 at 09:47 AM.

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    Senior Member Fikira's Avatar
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    Just for the record, it is a Henry Birks, made between 1720-1752!

    https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/birks/

    😉

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    I absolutely love threads like this.
    Fikira, BobH, jfk742 and 1 others like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelkerr View Post
    I absolutely love threads like this.
    If you look at other posts by the late Neil Miller you will see a lot of history. His strops were pieces of art.
    - Joshua

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