Joel's reviews / Puma Gold ???

Hey guys,
do you ever read Joel's reviews of his razors? See here

He seems to have ranked his razors in order of most difficult to find being the best, and moving down the line with what is easier to obtain being less good

1.) Chronik (hands down)

2.) Tie between my very, very old Japanese Tamahagane Steel Straight Razor and another very rare Japanese Straight razor made by a very famous swordsmith Ikkansai Kasama Shigetsugu.

3.) Puma Gold, Tosuke (ZDP 189 steel), Coller a Nogent (REAL wootz damascus)

4.) TI LE Hammer Forged, TI LE Horn Tang, RW's, Maestro's, Standard Tosuke Steel Japanese Straights, Dubl Duck Wonderedge, Sta-Sharp, Craftsman

5.) TI LE Frameback AKA Square Back, Dovo #41 Stainless Blades, Dovo Specials, Genco/Geneva, Waterville, high end TI's

6.) Henckels Friodurs, Henckels, Wackers, and so on and so forth.

7.) Thiers Issard Damascus, run of the mill TI's/Dovo's, misc off brands, etc

I know some people laughed at his 'chronik' story as he toted it to be a mysterious metal of near unobtainium character, which I do find amusing when I hear what some people say... Now I've got another question (not about the Chronik)

...In this review he's proclaiming his puma gold as a phenomenal shaver, ranking it #3 behind probably what are custom made razors from Japan. Basically, he's stating that of Western razors, it's the best 'production' razor he's ever tried. He justifies the $400 he spent on it because i) it's a puma, 2) it's a hard to find puma, and 3) you can't get anything better for less than $400. Then he goes on to say that he's had a couple of puma golds and they were good shavers, but this one is "amazing".

I have had multiple Puma Golds, some with different blade patterns/gold washes, etc - however the best of 'em has been the 6/8 model in the blade style shown. The others were good.... but the one in that review is amazing.

How does quality between a single-maker's single-model razor vary? wouldn't all puma golds be the same? And does anyone else have any experience with puma gold's quality of shave?

I hear you. You should take all reviews with a grain of salt, of course. At one point Joel was saying that TIs don't shave crapp. Obviously, this has changed now.

There are multiple Puma Gold models. Some of them are old production, others - newer, it seems. Some have stamped tangs, others have clean tangs. Some have letters on the blade right under the floral design. I'd say they feel different, too. I think there are different sizes. At least 5/8 and 6/8, can't remember about 4/8. Not sure if there are differences in steel and treatment - quite possibly, imo. At least treatment, for sure.

I did sell one like Joel's very recently, only it was a bit more exciting and good-looking. Nicer tip, came NOS unused to me, I had used it once. Was asking $450, because it was in a better condition than some others, who went for over $400. I had sufficient interest in the razor, I must say. And not by people who don't know crapp about razors.

I have kept one other Puma Gold. I actually like it more than the one I sold. YMMV

Cheers
Ivo

Hey Ivo,
thanks for chiming in. The reason I ask is that I just won two Puma Golds on ebay. Neither was over $100, and I'm pysched to try them out (they'll be my first Pumas). I rather preferred a black handled Puma I saw a few weeks ago with French point marked 'Pour Barbes Tres Dur', but it went for too much IMO. At least it went for more than I was willing to spend. However, based on Joel's review, I thought I'd try out these guys and see if they do any better than my other good/great shavers.

I think the ones I won are without writing below the gold wash, and are stamped on the tang #77 and #78. I think one might be 5/8" and the other 6/8", but I'll have to wait until they arrive. The handles aren't much to look at, but I feel that if they are worth it, I can always upgrade that part. I guess I'll see how they stack up, but if nothing else, at least I hear Pumas in general are decent, even if theses aren't the Holy Grail.

We all have our own and form our own opinions as our knowledge and experience increase in this art. Every razor performs different for each of us. Sorry about the omnipotent Chronik.......but still have never seen one. My list would be entirely different than Joel's as would other peoples I'm sure. I wouldn't even have the Japanese razors on my list as I find them awkward to use and yet I would have Bokers in the same area as Pumas and Sta-Sharps. I also find Waterville and other US manufacturers to be up there as well. Although I have found Wackers to be nice shavers, I would not have them on my bestest of bestest list either, but maybe others would. I really have tried to quit touting specific razors as a large price escalation seems to ensue.......hahahahaha

You guys have fun.

Lynn

Awhile back, there was a puma gold on ebay. I believe it was a NOS 6/8 and came with an unused puma loom strop. The listing ended early and when i emailed the guy asking why he ended it, he told me an american offered him $200.00. I felt sorry for the guy getting ripped off like that so I told him that it was quite possibly worth a lot more. I pointed him to Joel's review where it says $400 for the razor alone. He emailed me back saying he was keeping it up for sale, but I never found out what happened to the set (never went back up on ebay and I never made an offer) I was more interested in the strop; looked a lot wider than most loom strops, perhaps on par with the maestro strops.

Lynn, you're killing me! I can pick up Bokers on ebay for $30, and some Sta-Sharps for about the same... and Pumas are only as good as these? Sheesh, why do they always end up costing more then? And why do I keep buying razors looking for something better?

My current rotation includes
6/8" round point KAMA (aquired Dec 06)
13/16" oblique point Globusmen (Jan 07)
5/8" SFK Wapienica (May 07 - two more acquired in June)
6/8" Henckels Friodur (July 07)
Now two Puma Golds (August 07)
I also have a couple of others that I intend to fix up and sell or use.

I'm not sure if I'm buying more razors because I'm looking for a better shaver, or for something more unique. Sometimes ebay in-and-of-itself is addictive. I think it's hard looking for something better when you don't know what is better or what you want, but I need to stop acquiring razors. I think from now on I should either convince myself that there isn't anything AMAZINGLY better, or go for broke and just buy a Maestro/RW/Ellis/Chandler custom razor and have exactly what I want.

I'm surprised not to see the Maestro feature on his list.
Were does he fit in?

The Maestro is in the #4 group.

I'd like to know how he gets his hands on razors made from ZDP and tamahagane, these are pretty elite metals

Why would anyone equate the performance of anything whether its a razor or something else with its relative performance? Things are priced according to what the buyer thinks he can get for it and new products often are based on advertising and hype anyway.

I think for anyone to make a list of the best razors is about the same as saying what are my favorite breakfeast cereals or a list of my favorite beers. Lynn's right, each would have his own list even if he started with the exact same razors. Personally the Maestro, the Zowada, the Iwasaki and the williams are my top four. (sounds like a cheap wrestling tag team eh?)

Best razor?.....Several years ago I posed that question to the guys on the Yahoo SRP forum. I was new and wanted to have some guidance as to what to buy. The best answer that I received was from John Crowley ( If I recall correctly). He said......The best razor is the one that you have just honed to perfection!

How right he is,:)

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The best razor is the one that you have just honed to perfection!

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Very well said!

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

Best razor?.....Several years ago I posed that question to the guys on the Yahoo SRP forum. I was new and wanted to have some guidance as to what to buy. The best answer that I received was from John Crowley ( If I recall correctly). He said......The best razor is the one that you have just honed to perfection!

How right he is,:)

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How true that is!!! In a sense, razors are like women... they're all different... and thank god we're not all lusting after the same one:D

I do not understand how on Joel's list he did not even mention Wade & Butcher, Boker, Fredrick Renolds, George Westenholm, Joseph Rodgers, or Bengall. It just seems wrong not to have these razors in the mix somewhere. I mean seriously these are all old school Sheffield steel. How can you not even include them?

Good to see the majority of people here at SRP have thier heads on straight; and realize it all really comes down to personal preferance. Every face, every blade is different. If it feels good do it. If if feels really good do it alot!

Hello,

Among vintage straights. Puma is generally at the top of the heap, Puma-Gold leading the pack. I have an example just like the one reviewed by Joel. It's not mint; had some very light pitting, polished off partly by myself and partly by Robert Williams (thanks again, Robert!). I did not pay even close to $400 for it, but I can see mint example fetching that kind of price. I have tried about two dozen straights (numerous Pumas, Friodurs, Henckels, Bengall, Sta-Sharp, Genco, Shumate, W&B, Wacker) , mostly honed by honemeisters, some by me, and Puma-Gold shaves just a tad better than all the others, with the exception of RW 6/8, 1/4 hollow. RW is a markedly better shaver. Steel, blade geometry, balance and heft, honing, RW's magic? Probably all of the above. Now, I want to be perfectly clear; I don't take an issue with the statements that $20 straight can shave as well as any custom made razor. I am merely saying that my Williams shaves markedly better than any other straight I have ever tried, and that includes numerous Pumas. Perhaps Iwasaki could outshave RW, but I have yet to try it. So far it simply sits in my drawer, along with mint 6/8 Puma Friseur Freund No. 1 and some Wapienicas, waiting for the hone. I am just that happy with Williams.
As a full disclosure, I will mention that there was a quality issue with the RW. As I expected, Robert stood behind his product and took care of it in no time. I respect that immensely and will ask him for another custom job when finances permit.

Regards,

Dariusz

Puma Gold 6/8 1967 price brand new in the box $7.50 (and I have the sales tickets to prove it.)I dont remember that they seemed to be that special at that time.I also have some Wonder Edges that were 6,50 ea from Cincinatti Barber Supply ,also in 1967.I just liked buying razors when I was a kid,and never dreamed they would be selling for these prices.Coffee was also 5 cents a cup(Holy S*** Starbucks) (Singer 45 ACP $45.00,mine is now worth 7000.00)The good old days were not so good 3 channels on TV /black and white/no remote,but then No AIDS,No Herpes,Free Love,and lots of it
Best Regards Gary

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Originally Posted by Traveller

Puma Gold 6/8 1967 price brand new in the box $7.50 (and I have the sales tickets to prove it.)I dont remember that they seemed to be that special at that time.I also have some Wonder Edges that were 6,50 ea from Cincinatti Barber Supply ,also in 1967.I just liked buying razors when I was a kid,and never dreamed they would be selling for these prices.Coffee was also 5 cents a cup(Holy S*** Starbucks) (Singer 45 ACP $45.00,mine is now worth 7000.00)The good old days were not so good 3 channels on TV /black and white/no remote,but then No AIDS,No Herpes,Free Love,and lots of it
Best Regards Gary

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Great post, Gary! Love it :tu

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Originally Posted by Traveller

Puma Gold 6/8 1967 price brand new in the box $7.50 (and I have the sales tickets to prove it.)...I also have some Wonder Edges that were 6.50 ea from Cincinatti Barber Supply ,also in 1967.I just liked buying razors when I was a kid,and never dreamed they would be selling for these prices.Coffee was also 5 cents a cup(Holy S*** Starbucks) (Singer 45 ACP $45.00,mine is now worth 7000.00)The good old days were not so good 3 channels on TV /black and white/no remote,but then No AIDS,No Herpes,Free Love,and lots of it
Best Regards Gary

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The average income in 1965 was $28.6K, the average salary in 2005 was $41.4K (inflation adjusted dollars). That's only about a 40% increase (or 144% depending on how you look at it).:thinking: source

From the inflation calculator it seems that in 1967 dollars, $6.50 would be worth $39 now, and $7.50 would be worth $45 in 2006 (they don't list 2007) dollars. Sh*t - we're all being ripped off for our razors!:eek:

Then again, a gillette fusion power is $13.50 (with only 1 blade to last you ~3 weeks) and 8 refill cartridges to last you 6 months are $30 (total = $41.50)

On the other hand, for the $0.05 coffee, with inflation it should only be $0.30 in 2006 dollars. The cheapest drip coffee (forget that tall latte soy mochachino for $6) I find at some hole-in-the-wall diner is a buck (about a 20-fold increase)... so maybe a $7 razor should be worth $140 now?:shrug:

It seems clear though that in reality, while salary might not be keeping up with inflation, prices are rising, and by the time I have sons who want to shave, it'll cost them probably a week's pay to buy just one razor. Then again, maybe by the time I have sons the world will be overpopulatred, global warming will have melted all the polar icecaps and greenland, we'll be headed into an ice-age and shaving will be the least of man's problems.:rant:

if you're over 65 yrs old you can get a coffee for $0.75 at McDonalds...

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Originally Posted by fredvs79

The average income in 1965 was $28.6K, the average salary in 2005 was $41.4K (inflation adjusted dollars). That's only about a 40% increase (or 144% depending on how you look at it).:thinking: source


It seems clear though that in reality, while salary might not be keeping up with inflation,

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Both median salary figures you cite are in 2005 dollars, so salaries have more than kept up with inflation.

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Originally Posted by SteveS

Both median salary figures you cite are in 2005 dollars, so salaries have more than kept up with inflation.

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Obviously. In adjusted dollars, the average wage has increased roughly $11.4K since 1967.

I think what I meant to say was not salary keeping up with inflation, but the inflated prices of razors. If you go to the inflation calculator and enter the average salary of 1967 ($28600) for the value, enter the initial year as 1967 and the final year as 2005, you will get a final value of $166K, i.e., if you were making $28.6k in 1967, you were doing pretty well. (this is erronious information and is irrelevant for this discussion though)

Of note, below this it says that in 2005 dollars, $28.6K was the equivalent to ~$5k in 1967 dollars. So if the census bureau was reporting salary in 2005 adjusted dollars, that means your paycheck would be like $100 for a 40 hour work week back in 1967. At roughly $2.50 an hour wage, you can see that a $7 razor was like 3 hours worth of salary.

But onto my argument for salary keeping up with the rising prices of razors...

Based on inflation alone, the $7 razor would be worth $40 today. This is equivalently a 5.7X increase. Likewise, the $5K you would have been making in 1967 would be equivalent to $28.6K now (also about a 5.7X increase). It should be clear that the rate of inflation between 1967 and 2005 is about 5.7X.

By todays standards a man making the average $40K a year is earning an $800 a week pay check for a 40 hour week. That's like $20 an hour. If he were to spend the same 3 hours salary on a razor, he should be able to buy a $60 razor. But the cost of the razor we said should have only inflated to $40. So salary is keeping up with inflation.

But a new straight razor isn't $40, or even $60 any more. Now I see prices of commercially made blades from DoVo and TI for $100-$200. NOS blades are equivalently as expensive. That's almost a day's pay depending on how much you spend. My point was that in the coming future, at this rate, a razor will cost a week's pay.

Ahhh . . . so you're saying razor prices are increasing faster than salaries. Fair enough!

Edit: your extrapolation argument seems as good a reason as any to buy more razors now. :hmmm: