Help w ID of old J R razors

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Hi,
I am researching a couple of Joseph Rodgers and sons razors, recently inherited with a box, that I now believe is called a "military campaign chest".
In this box are several old dentists tools, the net info dates them to the 1820s. All of the trays in the box are "French fitted" I believe the term is. Every aspect of the box, implies quality.
It has been in my family since the early 1800s, as my Great Grandfather received it sometime after his birth in 1860.
Now my GGGrandfather received it from two brothers, reason unknown, I suspect he loaned them something, his wife held it perhaps, and they all three never made it back from job hunting in New Orleans, all vapor locking from the yellow fever.
So how my Great Grandfather obtained it I dont know, but I am simply offering the story, to help date the razors and other contents. My Grandfather received it in 1910, from his father. My father in 1979, and myself this spring. Again, just showing chain of custody to help prove the boxes whereabouts.
My father had a hand written note, "this box was at least 150 years old in 1910 when his father received it. Now that puts it 1760!!!
And I do NOT believe its that old. But getting a solid date on the razors would help, because they have an unusual stamp.
I had contacted James Goodwin, the PR guy from the existing company, Egginton, that owns the trademark JR and Sons. His reply:
"They look genuine Joseph Rodgers to me but I am not really an expert on straight razors. It is unusual that the Star and Cross trademark is not present."
Now its easy to find that "their majesties..." dates them to 1860 or so, but WHERE are the normal what I call an "iron cross"?
He suggested contacting some of the razor collectors forums, so here I be.
I KNOW antique firearms. I know wood finishes, I know "old items". That this box spent the past 200 odd years at least in the SW corner of MO, with its high humidity, would preserve its miter corners and tight construction.
None of my grandfathers pulled teeth, yet it has multiple dental torture tools as well. Which backs up the story of its original owners NOT being my family members.
Of course, the razors may have come later, but then their stamps dont match what they were in the 1875, assuming my ancestor began shaving at 15.
All ideas are welcome. Sorry for the long winded story. I figure its time better spent, than worrying about what shenanigans, our brain dead govt is doing. :-)
Ron

Attachment 333879 img_0533.jpg

What you have there is a lovely old dressing case or travel kit. Though things like that were used in the military, they were also common items for the well-to-do traveler.

Do you have a picture of the dentistry tools? Because if you're talking about the two hooks in the compartment on the left, those are boot-pulls, for helping pull on your boots. Some of them also double as bottle-opener, but those appear to be single purpose.

The razors are a mismatched set. The one with the white wedge in the end looks like it's in vulcanized rubber handles and likely dates to the 1880's or later. The other would probably be earlier, but not by much.

Sometimes the top plate of the locking mechanism (that's visible in your second picture) has small text about who made the lock which could help pin down a date for the box, but I have a very similar kit from about 1850 and that's about where I'd pin the date for yours.

Nice box/kit. As the man said, boot pulls. As just so you know, he is one of our finest members when it comes to dating so you're in luck he was around. You have some nice stuff. Keep it safe and pass it on. Vintage family stuff is a treasure to have.

I should also add that I got really, really lucky with the case I've got. They can be fiendishly difficult to pin a manufacturer on much less a date. Mine has the original mirror (which went into that cavity inside the lid), and the backing of the mirror was coming off so I could see what was inside. To keep the leather dye from leaching into the mirror silvering, they'd put a piece of paper between the leather and the glass. The paper was from the company's ledger 20 years prior. Armed with that it was possible to pin things down and conclude that yes, the silver pen/pencil combo was part of the original set and the hallmark date was likely accurate to within a year or two.

Hey amigos,
The new pictures do not show every item discussed below. I just spent 20 minutes getting IT to upload! PICS continue to kick my butt!
I knew what the boot jacks were, but I am surprised the white ivory spacer didn't register too me before. And it is ivory. On the JR historical factory site, they have some pictures of their ivory rooms! simply unbelievable even to a guy like me that's read a lot of Samuel White Bakers stuff, who while whacking elephants all over the world, also was attempting to help Britain manage the ivory slave trade with the various war lords that ran the sand box countries in the mid 1800s.
One example never ceases to amaze me. One good ivory tusk, was worth a pack of iron needles, (how large I dont know) and one could then could trade said needles for a young slave. History is brutal, too bad more folks dont know it.
Pardon me getting off track.
Here are the dental tools. 6 scraping, scratching, pick type tools with an interchangable handle. Mahogany "felt" lined box about 3"x2". I guess the Leatherman and Swiss army knife are not new ideas.:)
The T handle chingaso, is called a "tooth key", and while my granny did use pliers on a baby tooth or two of mine, this thing looks to have been invented by the marquis de Sade, or maybe Satan himself.
The two "lancets" the spear point about an inch long, the miniature razor, a blade maybe 1.7, and it may have been longer, but it has been sharpened many times. There is a pocket stone maybe 1.5 x 1 inch, rather coarse, and the little razor has coarse sharpening marks on it.
The long one marked "SWING", the spade marked "Green" These are not in the picture, as I could not get the uploaded.
Now the little fob, is a total mystery, one side red, the other black. It has what may be two snakes, wrapped around a sword maybe? Gold washed. Now most medical corp military devices has similar snakes wrapped around a post/sword/staff, but their heads are at the top.
I searched multiple countries, all the suspect ones, but found nothing, nada ,zilch, with the heads going down.
The lock plate has been replaced, the reason I called it a "military" box, was due to the brass reinforcing pieces, half way down the corners. Those found on the net all had similar reinforcement.
I was hoping the odd stamps on the razor, would be a dead tell. I know the box is older than 1860, as that's the year my one ancestor was born. Similar dental tools allege the 1820s. If we assume his father was born 1840, we still are guessing as too who gave it to my earliest known grandpap.
Still hoping someone can figure out the missing cross, on the JR stamp.
I know factory guns are often dated by their roll marks, but then the stamp broke midstream in production, and changes took place next day. I imagine same with razors.

Thanks too all, Ron

Yes indeed those are dental tools!

Alas, I am only seeing one picture of the small box, but that one is plenty fascinating. Is there a dedicated cutout for those?

Swift on one, Green on another? That would make them mismatched too. Those makers are annoyingly difficult to identify due to also being common English words. Boxes of interchangeable head scaling tools like that go back to the mid 1600's, so that's no help in pinning it down. Is there a maker's mark on the tooth key? It looks considerably more ornate than the scaling tools.

If there are any silver-embellished items in the box, they should have a hallmark on them that'll give a maker's name and the year it was made. I'd be happy to dig up that information if you can find some marks.

As for the razors, the ivory wedge is a dead giveaway that the razor was either put into different scales than the original (ivory or bone wedges were a French thing, and I don't think I've ever seen a Rodgers that used one), or it's a counterfeit Rodgers. It is something that happened, but I don't think that's what's going on there. Those are definitely Sheffield-made razors.

Rodgers, for whatever reason, seems to have produced a goodly number of razors in the mid-1800's that didn't use their trademark. It's possible it was originally stamped mid-blade and that's been ground off, but I think they just didn't use the mark for a while. Placing both of them mid-1800's would also mean if either is in hard rubber scales, it has definitely been re-scaled. That was one of the more common repairs for old razors and it was done with the entire imaginable range of quality, from undetectable, to literally held-together with string and tape. Either way, I'm deeply envious of the record-keeping for gun manufacture, because razors have nothing like it. Rodgers razors are especially difficult to identify date ranges for because they made ninety bazillion different patterns and don't seem to have ever retired old ones. You would think the wording of the stamp would help, but I've seen "Cutlers to his Majesty" on razors stamped with Victoria's crown. I suspect they got a visit over that which lead to the "Their Majesties" wording, but who knows.

In short, the stamps on Joseph Rodgers razors are a regular source of frustration.

Not sure that's what you're saying but I think it would be a mistake to assume that all these items were put in the box at the same time or even same period. Therefore I don't know that you can date any one item by the date of another.

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Not sure that's what you're saying but I think it would be a mistake to assume that all these items were put in the box at the same time or even same period. Therefore I don't know that you can date any one item by the date of another.

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I think the razors may well have been original to the set, but mostly I like identifying everything as much as possible, because a box of many different stories is cooler than a box with one.

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Yes indeed those are dental tools!

Alas, I am only seeing one picture of the small box, but that one is plenty fascinating. Is there a dedicated cutout for those?

Swift on one, Green on another? That would make them mismatched too. Those makers are annoyingly difficult to identify due to also being common English words. Boxes of interchangeable head scaling tools like that go back to the mid 1600's, so that's no help in pinning it down. Is there a maker's mark on the tooth key? It looks considerably more ornate than the scaling tools.

If there are any silver-embellished items in the box, they should have a hallmark on them that'll give a maker's name and the year it was made. I'd be happy to dig up that information if you can find some marks.

As for the razors, the ivory wedge is a dead giveaway that the razor was either put into different scales than the original (ivory or bone wedges were a French thing, and I don't think I've ever seen a Rodgers that used one), or it's a counterfeit Rodgers. It is something that happened, but I don't think that's what's going on there. Those are definitely Sheffield-made razors.

Rodgers, for whatever reason, seems to have produced a goodly number of razors in the mid-1800's that didn't use their trademark. It's possible it was originally stamped mid-blade and that's been ground off, but I think they just didn't use the mark for a while. Placing both of them mid-1800's would also mean if either is in hard rubber scales, it has definitely been re-scaled. That was one of the more common repairs for old razors and it was done with the entire imaginable range of quality, from undetectable, to literally held-together with string and tape. Either way, I'm deeply envious of the record-keeping for gun manufacture, because razors have nothing like it. Rodgers razors are especially difficult to identify date ranges for because they made ninety bazillion different patterns and don't seem to have ever retired old ones. You would think the wording of the stamp would help, but I've seen "Cutlers to his Majesty" on razors stamped with Victoria's crown. I suspect they got a visit over that which lead to the "Their Majesties" wording, but who knows.

In short, the stamps on Joseph Rodgers razors are a regular source of frustration.

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SWING on the small “razor”, Green, with a G R with a crown between the letters on the spade shape. Yes the scraping tools lay in shaped grooves, cover by I said felt, I was looking for the word velvet. A black ebony octagonal handle, I say ebony, its some dense material, no grain apparent.
The razor with the ivory spacer, does look to be hard rubber.
The one with gray spacer, has some natural looking waves, and the pivot end is splitting, horn I imagine, and while black some hint of faded brown on the ends.
Horn was used for all sorts of things, as most here likely know. Butt plates, grips etc. It can be shaped and molded as I recall, by soaking in water.
No silver items.
The razors do have near identical wear and sweeps on the blades. Not like one got used by a different man, or they were from two different sources. I would image scale replacement was common. They got dropped, stepped on etc.
Some sources allege “their majesties” stamp went south when “their majesties’’ began looking up at the roots in 1861.
I simply do not believe that they are “knock offs”, their quality in no way implies that. But we know the box was in my GG Grandfathers hands before 1860, that traditional evidence, but logical, as if my Great Grandfather would have no need for the razors at all till 1875 or so, and what? he bought an old dentist tool kit to obtain used razors? Very possible your honor, logic hints he would have gotten the later stamped razors by their lonesome.
Folks always prefer the story, to the actual item, gun knife or what ever. My number one rule, “buy the gun, not the story” :-)
I am likely biased, but with the story, and the older dated dental tools, as well as the missing cross on the blades, I lean that the razors are near the age of the tooth gizmo.
Which sadly, has not markings, though one of the dental websites, did say markings were unusual. It does have a rotating claw, which not all of them did. Nor did any of them have that rectangular handle, they are round.

Thanks again, might find them ghosts yet, but probably not :-)

I like your thinking. :cool: But Paul is correct as well. The age of the dental tools seems to be early 1800s through the examples I have found on the net.
I was hoping for a date on the razors, due to some documented records of JR. Why their literature does not show trademarks before the 1861 era is a mystery in its own right. Maybe they didnt stamp them? Cripes, if there is a general rule, half the things ever made in Britian, has some kind of crown on it. Especially for international trade.
Back to the gun example, “never say never”, when arguing production, chambering etc. The old ones had custom shops, and nearly every feature of a firearm, could be custom ordered.
Thanks for youR interest, and to all others as well

Ebony was one of the main traditional materials for surgical tools, so that's a good guess.

I meant is there a cutout in the main box for the smaller box of dental tools?

The GR crown on the Green marks it most likely as 1821-1830, that also narrows that one tool down to Alfred Green, who made surgeons tools in Sheffield from about 1825 into the 1850's.

Doctors and surgeons at the least typically had whole sets that were dedicated to the profession, rather than being one part of the tools in a dressing kit. Perhaps dentists were different. The profession diverged from mainstream medicine well before the 1800's (to everyone's detriment -- I mean, teeth are just bones we can look at without bleeding), and their toolkit is smaller than most surgeons.

My strong suspicion is that the contents of the box are a Ship of Theseus situation... And speaking of contents and ships, are those sea shells in the middle central compartment on the top tray? If you can get a closer picture of them, I can tell you what ocean they came from and what animals they belonged to.

(Well, my wife can, she is to shells as I am to razors).

Like I said, I don't think the razors are knockoffs, but it can't be entirely discounted. In my opinion, the razors are no earlier than the 1840's (based on the scales of the one in it's original horn scales). I'm very skeptical of dating Rodgers razors by the wording of their stamps other than crown stamps in the absence of other slogans and identifying marks.

It looks to me like that glass jar in the upper left of the top tray has a silver lid on it. Though, in the set I have those jars have silver plated lids which are no help, but maybe yours is solid. The marking would likely be on the inside.

It's been my experience that stories that are used to sell an item are rarely correct, so I share your perspective of never buying a story (though as I writer I certainly want publishers to buy mine). However, the stories I'm talking about are the ones that can be deduced from the item, its manufacturer, and who it's possible to verify as an owner. Most of the time it doesn't go farther than the manufacturer, but every now and then...

The other possible location of identifying information about the box would be the locking mechanism. This is what the one on my box looks like. Are there any marks at all on yours?

Attachment 333892

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Originally Posted by RgR

I like your thinking. :cool: But Paul is correct as well. The age of the dental tools seems to be early 1800s through the examples I have found on the net.
I was hoping for a date on the razors, due to some documented records of JR. Why their literature does not show trademarks before the 1861 era is a mystery in its own right. Maybe they didnt stamp them? Cripes, if there is a general rule, half the things ever made in Britian, has some kind of crown on it. Especially for international trade.
Back to the gun example, “never say never”, when arguing production, chambering etc. The old ones had custom shops, and nearly every feature of a firearm, could be custom ordered.
Thanks for youR interest, and to all others as well

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Oops! Missed this message.

The registering of trademarks for cutlery in Sheffield was initially all done through the Cutler's Company, but for a variety of reasons, they lost their monopoly power over them in 1814 and were a bit rudderless until the 1850's. Their initial mark was granted in 1764. Here's a picture of the official document (missing is the lead tag that their mark was impressed into, hanging from a ribbon, which was apparently lost a long time ago):

Attachment 333893

That, sadly, was sold at an auction in Sheffield about 7 years ago, but at least it went to someone local rather than me or some other foreign collector.

The crown marks on cutlery were used impressively inconsistently, but they are at least a semi-reliable dating mechanism. Usually.

Razors also could be custom ordered and sent back to the factory for refurbishing, but it was much more common to find a local grinder, whether a street vendor or a shop, to do work on them, but the whole question of who manufactured anything is extremely murky.

You can say with certainty who it was manufactured for, but not who made it. There was a stable of workmen who worked in small teams. They often worked for multiple companies at the same time, and they were responsible for the physical making of the goods. In the day it was said you could identify when one made any given blade based on their characteristic style -- a slightly swoopier spine here, a deeper-cut groove there -- but the expertise to see that was dead and buried by the first world war. No one wrote it down. The various companies didn't really like that the workers in their facilities used those facilities to make goods for the guy across the street or even the ocean, but the workers paid rent for the privilege of working under that roof so no one made much of a fuss over it. So a razor stamped Wade & Butcher could easily have been made under Rodger's roof because William & Samuel Butcher were paying for it while Rodgers had no orders.

So... Yeah, trade marks on razors are just one piece of how it's possible to assign a date, and sometimes not even the most reliable one.

And Rodgers was bad about all sorts of the parts that help identify things. For example, the rounded washers on the razor in horn scales were used continuously from about 1800 until about 1910. There were styles of washers that had a narrower range of use, but Rodgers didn't reliably use them.

I feel relatively confident in pinning those as between about 1840 and maybe 1860. Possibly '70. Other than being used, they've been well cared for.

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

I think the razors may well have been original to the set, but mostly I like identifying everything as much as possible, because a box of many different stories is cooler than a box with one.

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Oh I wholeheartedly agree. My only caution was assuming that they were made contemporaneously. As an example in our historic district I see old mortise locks on houses that I know for a fact predate the house by 20 to 30 years. I also know that they are original to the house. So what does that mean? Someone took a lock that was 20 years old and put it on a brand new house? As odd as that would seem today I think that's exactly what happened and my assumption is that because manufacturing, trade, logistics all went slower back 150-200 years ago things got to market slower and stayed on the market longer because of the delay in the supply chain. Therefore an item that went into that chest could possibly have already been 20 years old before it was even put in their brand new while another might have been made only days before that.

May I say in respect....you know some weird S...:-)
No, there is no "area" for the scraper kit. I realized that about the tooth key, it floats around, a bit too large for the tray to fit correctly.
That round lid, seems of copper, but hints of silver are there.
There are six of these little shells, all about the size of a red kidney bean.
The fob is way strange, just like the whole project I guess.
I would also comment, and this would back up the story about the beginnings of the box, that these tools show VERY little use. I have worn out modern pocket knife blades in 6 or 7 years, several of them in fact, in daily use. Look at the stone, which is a washita stone, I am pretty sure, is rather hard, not one of the soft ones but I have modern India stones that show more wear.
In short, the original owner, dentist though he may have been, didn't remove many teeth.
Thanks gents, oh yeah, this website is the modern supplier of all sorts of neat things.
https://www.eggintongroup.co.uk
Their PR dude, James Goodwin, is fantastic.
Ron

Paul, I am in agreement for sure. The only evidence seen is that everything seems to match the legend behind the box.
Imagine the dentist guy is carrying his tools around in a ditty bag. We know they were not fitted to the box, but he puts his razors and bootjacks and tools in the box. They fit close enough.
Everything present in the box, dates to a decade or so difference. The lack of wear on the tools, and the razors for that matter, hint that the dentist didn't use the tools very often, nor did the razors get used that much. The box itself is in near perfect condition, yet has been glued a place or three over the years. But no outside scaring is found either. Yes, an old scratch or two, but nothing decades of daily use would cause.
I think the dentist passed it on to my GreatGreatgrandpap, my GreatGrandpap, who perhaps never used the blades either.
Why do I say that? His name was Arthur Ryder. He was employed as a drummer by a concern known as Simmons Hardware in St Louis. The head office may have been NYC. Simmons had the Shapleigh name, as well as Keen Kutter, and Blue Grass I think. all famous hardware store.
There is a whistle stop town named after him in central ND. And a tale about why it was named after him. I visited Ryder back in the early 80s. A museum with his picture. He was up there establishing trade. Its still there, along with fewer residents than some of the famous still existing mining towns in NV.
Did he haul this box around? I doubt it, but that simply explains why it has little wear and tear.
No one seems to think the razors are knock offs. Not even the gent from Egginton. but one would think, other examples would be found, with out the "proof" stamps.
As he pointed out, "why make a knockoff, and leave them out"? Good observation. On the other hand, Matlock could probably come up with logic as to why a knockoff maker would leave them off. :-)
thanks for your observations. Ron

Forgot to mention, if someone could ID that watch fob, or what ever that chingadera is, I would smile for a week. it's the size of a quarter, black glass one side, blood red the other. Either birds, or snakes, or maybe eels, wrapped around the shaft/sword/fencepost?

Thanks again, Ron

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Originally Posted by RgR

Forgot to mention, if someone could ID that watch fob, or what ever that chingadera is, I would smile for a week. it's the size of a quarter, black glass one side, blood red the other. Either birds, or snakes, or maybe eels, wrapped around the shaft/sword/fencepost?

Thanks again, Ron

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Looks like a variation of a caduceus.
Attachment 333917

There is an extensive Wikipedia article on the association of the caduceus with healing and as a symbol of armed forces medical services in the U.S.
http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...ol_of_medicine

I wish I had helpful information to add about the articles that are inside. I do find it all very fascinating as well as your family story. It's cool to have bragging rights to such things and even cooler to have cool heirlooms as a tangible element. I'm sure you cherish them deeply as I know I would. Thanks for the story.

After a cup or two of coffee it occurred to me that I left out that the peculiarity of the 20-30 year old locks installed on new houses would have been new...but still that age. So these new locks sat on a shelf for that amount of time. Odd by today's standard of "those shoes are so last season." And this in not an isolated occurrence. I can't put a number on it but I have seen it rather frequently over the decades.
Anyway the point was about production dates not necessarily being concurrent with sale date during that period.

Off the topic I know but this is an example of the types of locks I mean.
Attachment 333918

Subject for a different thread but if you are interested by old guns you might find these interesting also. The engineering and manufacturing of these is quite impressive for the period. This one is not that old: 120 to 135 years but still cool to see. I encounter them significantly older. I am the only guy in town who will work on these now since I have been in the business literally most of my life. It is a skill that is disappearing like typewriter repair.

Thanks, I had noticed the similarity, but would have lost the million dollars on that old quiz show, as i certainly dont recall ever reading or hearing that name. :D

Thus I had no idea what to search for. I just kept typing in “medical fobs”, and variations “dental”, Army Navy, French foreign legion, German, British, etc etc.

Never found a one, with the snakes same direction as the one you show. Maybe some country back in the day that no longer exists? One the Brits were in, hard to find on a map, even if ya know the name?

I did find similar medical devices for a couple of foreign countries military. yeah it seems world wide.

Thanks for the comments for sure.

The various military ribbons, medals, collar and cap devices, unit patches, and the like are their own history book. My Dad was WW2 of course, had most of the common ribbons a corporal would leave with, but one ribbon that EVERY single soldier, Marine, and I imagine sailor, that served in the Phillipines campaign received. And any body not paying attention we are losing hundreds of them by the day, may the Lord bless their souls.

A guy would have to have a photographic memory to get even a small percentage correct.