Thread: Help w ID of old J R razors

[ATTACH=CONFIG]333878[/ATTACH



Hi,
I am researching a couple of Joseph Rodgers and sons razors, recently inherited with a box, that I now believe is called a "military campaign chest".
In this box are several old dentists tools, the net info dates them to the 1820s. All of the trays in the box are "French fitted" I believe the term is. Every aspect of the box, implies quality.
It has been in my family since the early 1800s, as my Great Grandfather received it sometime after his birth in 1860.
Now my GGGrandfather received it from two brothers, reason unknown, I suspect he loaned them something, his wife held it perhaps, and they all three never made it back from job hunting in New Orleans, all vapor locking from the yellow fever.
So how my Great Grandfather obtained it I dont know, but I am simply offering the story, to help date the razors and other contents. My Grandfather received it in 1910, from his father. My father in 1979, and myself this spring. Again, just showing chain of custody to help prove the boxes whereabouts.
My father had a hand written note, "this box was at least 150 years old in 1910 when his father received it. Now that puts it 1760!!!
And I do NOT believe its that old. But getting a solid date on the razors would help, because they have an unusual stamp.
I had contacted James Goodwin, the PR guy from the existing company, Egginton, that owns the trademark JR and Sons. His reply:
"They look genuine Joseph Rodgers to me but I am not really an expert on straight razors. It is unusual that the Star and Cross trademark is not present."
Now its easy to find that "their majesties..." dates them to 1860 or so, but WHERE are the normal what I call an "iron cross"?
He suggested contacting some of the razor collectors forums, so here I be.
I KNOW antique firearms. I know wood finishes, I know "old items". That this box spent the past 200 odd years at least in the SW corner of MO, with its high humidity, would preserve its miter corners and tight construction.
None of my grandfathers pulled teeth, yet it has multiple dental torture tools as well. Which backs up the story of its original owners NOT being my family members.
Of course, the razors may have come later, but then their stamps dont match what they were in the 1875, assuming my ancestor began shaving at 15.
All ideas are welcome. Sorry for the long winded story. I figure its time better spent, than worrying about what shenanigans, our brain dead govt is doing. :-)
Ron

img_0533.jpg

What you have there is a lovely old dressing case or travel kit. Though things like that were used in the military, they were also common items for the well-to-do traveler.

Do you have a picture of the dentistry tools? Because if you're talking about the two hooks in the compartment on the left, those are boot-pulls, for helping pull on your boots. Some of them also double as bottle-opener, but those appear to be single purpose.

The razors are a mismatched set. The one with the white wedge in the end looks like it's in vulcanized rubber handles and likely dates to the 1880's or later. The other would probably be earlier, but not by much.

Sometimes the top plate of the locking mechanism (that's visible in your second picture) has small text about who made the lock which could help pin down a date for the box, but I have a very similar kit from about 1850 and that's about where I'd pin the date for yours.

Nice box/kit. As the man said, boot pulls. As just so you know, he is one of our finest members when it comes to dating so you're in luck he was around. You have some nice stuff. Keep it safe and pass it on. Vintage family stuff is a treasure to have.

I should also add that I got really, really lucky with the case I've got. They can be fiendishly difficult to pin a manufacturer on much less a date. Mine has the original mirror (which went into that cavity inside the lid), and the backing of the mirror was coming off so I could see what was inside. To keep the leather dye from leaching into the mirror silvering, they'd put a piece of paper between the leather and the glass. The paper was from the company's ledger 20 years prior. Armed with that it was possible to pin things down and conclude that yes, the silver pen/pencil combo was part of the original set and the hallmark date was likely accurate to within a year or two.

Hey amigos,
The new pictures do not show every item discussed below. I just spent 20 minutes getting IT to upload! PICS continue to kick my butt!
I knew what the boot jacks were, but I am surprised the white ivory spacer didn't register too me before. And it is ivory. On the JR historical factory site, they have some pictures of their ivory rooms! simply unbelievable even to a guy like me that's read a lot of Samuel White Bakers stuff, who while whacking elephants all over the world, also was attempting to help Britain manage the ivory slave trade with the various war lords that ran the sand box countries in the mid 1800s.
One example never ceases to amaze me. One good ivory tusk, was worth a pack of iron needles, (how large I dont know) and one could then could trade said needles for a young slave. History is brutal, too bad more folks dont know it.
Pardon me getting off track.
Here are the dental tools. 6 scraping, scratching, pick type tools with an interchangable handle. Mahogany "felt" lined box about 3"x2". I guess the Leatherman and Swiss army knife are not new ideas.
The T handle chingaso, is called a "tooth key", and while my granny did use pliers on a baby tooth or two of mine, this thing looks to have been invented by the marquis de Sade, or maybe Satan himself.
The two "lancets" the spear point about an inch long, the miniature razor, a blade maybe 1.7, and it may have been longer, but it has been sharpened many times. There is a pocket stone maybe 1.5 x 1 inch, rather coarse, and the little razor has coarse sharpening marks on it.
The long one marked "SWING", the spade marked "Green" These are not in the picture, as I could not get the uploaded.
Now the little fob, is a total mystery, one side red, the other black. It has what may be two snakes, wrapped around a sword maybe? Gold washed. Now most medical corp military devices has similar snakes wrapped around a post/sword/staff, but their heads are at the top.
I searched multiple countries, all the suspect ones, but found nothing, nada ,zilch, with the heads going down.
The lock plate has been replaced, the reason I called it a "military" box, was due to the brass reinforcing pieces, half way down the corners. Those found on the net all had similar reinforcement.
I was hoping the odd stamps on the razor, would be a dead tell. I know the box is older than 1860, as that's the year my one ancestor was born. Similar dental tools allege the 1820s. If we assume his father was born 1840, we still are guessing as too who gave it to my earliest known grandpap.
Still hoping someone can figure out the missing cross, on the JR stamp.
I know factory guns are often dated by their roll marks, but then the stamp broke midstream in production, and changes took place next day. I imagine same with razors.

Thanks too all, Ron

Yes indeed those are dental tools!

Alas, I am only seeing one picture of the small box, but that one is plenty fascinating. Is there a dedicated cutout for those?

Swift on one, Green on another? That would make them mismatched too. Those makers are annoyingly difficult to identify due to also being common English words. Boxes of interchangeable head scaling tools like that go back to the mid 1600's, so that's no help in pinning it down. Is there a maker's mark on the tooth key? It looks considerably more ornate than the scaling tools.

If there are any silver-embellished items in the box, they should have a hallmark on them that'll give a maker's name and the year it was made. I'd be happy to dig up that information if you can find some marks.

As for the razors, the ivory wedge is a dead giveaway that the razor was either put into different scales than the original (ivory or bone wedges were a French thing, and I don't think I've ever seen a Rodgers that used one), or it's a counterfeit Rodgers. It is something that happened, but I don't think that's what's going on there. Those are definitely Sheffield-made razors.

Rodgers, for whatever reason, seems to have produced a goodly number of razors in the mid-1800's that didn't use their trademark. It's possible it was originally stamped mid-blade and that's been ground off, but I think they just didn't use the mark for a while. Placing both of them mid-1800's would also mean if either is in hard rubber scales, it has definitely been re-scaled. That was one of the more common repairs for old razors and it was done with the entire imaginable range of quality, from undetectable, to literally held-together with string and tape. Either way, I'm deeply envious of the record-keeping for gun manufacture, because razors have nothing like it. Rodgers razors are especially difficult to identify date ranges for because they made ninety bazillion different patterns and don't seem to have ever retired old ones. You would think the wording of the stamp would help, but I've seen "Cutlers to his Majesty" on razors stamped with Victoria's crown. I suspect they got a visit over that which lead to the "Their Majesties" wording, but who knows.

In short, the stamps on Joseph Rodgers razors are a regular source of frustration.

Not sure that's what you're saying but I think it would be a mistake to assume that all these items were put in the box at the same time or even same period. Therefore I don't know that you can date any one item by the date of another.

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Not sure that's what you're saying but I think it would be a mistake to assume that all these items were put in the box at the same time or even same period. Therefore I don't know that you can date any one item by the date of another.

I think the razors may well have been original to the set, but mostly I like identifying everything as much as possible, because a box of many different stories is cooler than a box with one.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Yes indeed those are dental tools!

Alas, I am only seeing one picture of the small box, but that one is plenty fascinating. Is there a dedicated cutout for those?

Swift on one, Green on another? That would make them mismatched too. Those makers are annoyingly difficult to identify due to also being common English words. Boxes of interchangeable head scaling tools like that go back to the mid 1600's, so that's no help in pinning it down. Is there a maker's mark on the tooth key? It looks considerably more ornate than the scaling tools.

If there are any silver-embellished items in the box, they should have a hallmark on them that'll give a maker's name and the year it was made. I'd be happy to dig up that information if you can find some marks.

As for the razors, the ivory wedge is a dead giveaway that the razor was either put into different scales than the original (ivory or bone wedges were a French thing, and I don't think I've ever seen a Rodgers that used one), or it's a counterfeit Rodgers. It is something that happened, but I don't think that's what's going on there. Those are definitely Sheffield-made razors.

Rodgers, for whatever reason, seems to have produced a goodly number of razors in the mid-1800's that didn't use their trademark. It's possible it was originally stamped mid-blade and that's been ground off, but I think they just didn't use the mark for a while. Placing both of them mid-1800's would also mean if either is in hard rubber scales, it has definitely been re-scaled. That was one of the more common repairs for old razors and it was done with the entire imaginable range of quality, from undetectable, to literally held-together with string and tape. Either way, I'm deeply envious of the record-keeping for gun manufacture, because razors have nothing like it. Rodgers razors are especially difficult to identify date ranges for because they made ninety bazillion different patterns and don't seem to have ever retired old ones. You would think the wording of the stamp would help, but I've seen "Cutlers to his Majesty" on razors stamped with Victoria's crown. I suspect they got a visit over that which lead to the "Their Majesties" wording, but who knows.

In short, the stamps on Joseph Rodgers razors are a regular source of frustration.

SWING on the small “razor”, Green, with a G R with a crown between the letters on the spade shape. Yes the scraping tools lay in shaped grooves, cover by I said felt, I was looking for the word velvet. A black ebony octagonal handle, I say ebony, its some dense material, no grain apparent.
The razor with the ivory spacer, does look to be hard rubber.
The one with gray spacer, has some natural looking waves, and the pivot end is splitting, horn I imagine, and while black some hint of faded brown on the ends.
Horn was used for all sorts of things, as most here likely know. Butt plates, grips etc. It can be shaped and molded as I recall, by soaking in water.
No silver items.
The razors do have near identical wear and sweeps on the blades. Not like one got used by a different man, or they were from two different sources. I would image scale replacement was common. They got dropped, stepped on etc.
Some sources allege “their majesties” stamp went south when “their majesties’’ began looking up at the roots in 1861.
I simply do not believe that they are “knock offs”, their quality in no way implies that. But we know the box was in my GG Grandfathers hands before 1860, that traditional evidence, but logical, as if my Great Grandfather would have no need for the razors at all till 1875 or so, and what? he bought an old dentist tool kit to obtain used razors? Very possible your honor, logic hints he would have gotten the later stamped razors by their lonesome.
Folks always prefer the story, to the actual item, gun knife or what ever. My number one rule, “buy the gun, not the story” :-)
I am likely biased, but with the story, and the older dated dental tools, as well as the missing cross on the blades, I lean that the razors are near the age of the tooth gizmo.
Which sadly, has not markings, though one of the dental websites, did say markings were unusual. It does have a rotating claw, which not all of them did. Nor did any of them have that rectangular handle, they are round.

Thanks again, might find them ghosts yet, but probably not :-)

I like your thinking. But Paul is correct as well. The age of the dental tools seems to be early 1800s through the examples I have found on the net.
I was hoping for a date on the razors, due to some documented records of JR. Why their literature does not show trademarks before the 1861 era is a mystery in its own right. Maybe they didnt stamp them? Cripes, if there is a general rule, half the things ever made in Britian, has some kind of crown on it. Especially for international trade.
Back to the gun example, “never say never”, when arguing production, chambering etc. The old ones had custom shops, and nearly every feature of a firearm, could be custom ordered.
Thanks for youR interest, and to all others as well