Thread: Help w ID of old J R razors

Ebony was one of the main traditional materials for surgical tools, so that's a good guess.

I meant is there a cutout in the main box for the smaller box of dental tools?

The GR crown on the Green marks it most likely as 1821-1830, that also narrows that one tool down to Alfred Green, who made surgeons tools in Sheffield from about 1825 into the 1850's.

Doctors and surgeons at the least typically had whole sets that were dedicated to the profession, rather than being one part of the tools in a dressing kit. Perhaps dentists were different. The profession diverged from mainstream medicine well before the 1800's (to everyone's detriment -- I mean, teeth are just bones we can look at without bleeding), and their toolkit is smaller than most surgeons.

My strong suspicion is that the contents of the box are a Ship of Theseus situation... And speaking of contents and ships, are those sea shells in the middle central compartment on the top tray? If you can get a closer picture of them, I can tell you what ocean they came from and what animals they belonged to.

(Well, my wife can, she is to shells as I am to razors).

Like I said, I don't think the razors are knockoffs, but it can't be entirely discounted. In my opinion, the razors are no earlier than the 1840's (based on the scales of the one in it's original horn scales). I'm very skeptical of dating Rodgers razors by the wording of their stamps other than crown stamps in the absence of other slogans and identifying marks.

It looks to me like that glass jar in the upper left of the top tray has a silver lid on it. Though, in the set I have those jars have silver plated lids which are no help, but maybe yours is solid. The marking would likely be on the inside.

It's been my experience that stories that are used to sell an item are rarely correct, so I share your perspective of never buying a story (though as I writer I certainly want publishers to buy mine). However, the stories I'm talking about are the ones that can be deduced from the item, its manufacturer, and who it's possible to verify as an owner. Most of the time it doesn't go farther than the manufacturer, but every now and then...

The other possible location of identifying information about the box would be the locking mechanism. This is what the one on my box looks like. Are there any marks at all on yours?

Originally Posted by RgR

I like your thinking. But Paul is correct as well. The age of the dental tools seems to be early 1800s through the examples I have found on the net.
I was hoping for a date on the razors, due to some documented records of JR. Why their literature does not show trademarks before the 1861 era is a mystery in its own right. Maybe they didnt stamp them? Cripes, if there is a general rule, half the things ever made in Britian, has some kind of crown on it. Especially for international trade.
Back to the gun example, “never say never”, when arguing production, chambering etc. The old ones had custom shops, and nearly every feature of a firearm, could be custom ordered.
Thanks for youR interest, and to all others as well

Oops! Missed this message.

The registering of trademarks for cutlery in Sheffield was initially all done through the Cutler's Company, but for a variety of reasons, they lost their monopoly power over them in 1814 and were a bit rudderless until the 1850's. Their initial mark was granted in 1764. Here's a picture of the official document (missing is the lead tag that their mark was impressed into, hanging from a ribbon, which was apparently lost a long time ago):



That, sadly, was sold at an auction in Sheffield about 7 years ago, but at least it went to someone local rather than me or some other foreign collector.

The crown marks on cutlery were used impressively inconsistently, but they are at least a semi-reliable dating mechanism. Usually.

Razors also could be custom ordered and sent back to the factory for refurbishing, but it was much more common to find a local grinder, whether a street vendor or a shop, to do work on them, but the whole question of who manufactured anything is extremely murky.

You can say with certainty who it was manufactured for, but not who made it. There was a stable of workmen who worked in small teams. They often worked for multiple companies at the same time, and they were responsible for the physical making of the goods. In the day it was said you could identify when one made any given blade based on their characteristic style -- a slightly swoopier spine here, a deeper-cut groove there -- but the expertise to see that was dead and buried by the first world war. No one wrote it down. The various companies didn't really like that the workers in their facilities used those facilities to make goods for the guy across the street or even the ocean, but the workers paid rent for the privilege of working under that roof so no one made much of a fuss over it. So a razor stamped Wade & Butcher could easily have been made under Rodger's roof because William & Samuel Butcher were paying for it while Rodgers had no orders.

So... Yeah, trade marks on razors are just one piece of how it's possible to assign a date, and sometimes not even the most reliable one.

And Rodgers was bad about all sorts of the parts that help identify things. For example, the rounded washers on the razor in horn scales were used continuously from about 1800 until about 1910. There were styles of washers that had a narrower range of use, but Rodgers didn't reliably use them.

I feel relatively confident in pinning those as between about 1840 and maybe 1860. Possibly '70. Other than being used, they've been well cared for.

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

I think the razors may well have been original to the set, but mostly I like identifying everything as much as possible, because a box of many different stories is cooler than a box with one.

Oh I wholeheartedly agree. My only caution was assuming that they were made contemporaneously. As an example in our historic district I see old mortise locks on houses that I know for a fact predate the house by 20 to 30 years. I also know that they are original to the house. So what does that mean? Someone took a lock that was 20 years old and put it on a brand new house? As odd as that would seem today I think that's exactly what happened and my assumption is that because manufacturing, trade, logistics all went slower back 150-200 years ago things got to market slower and stayed on the market longer because of the delay in the supply chain. Therefore an item that went into that chest could possibly have already been 20 years old before it was even put in their brand new while another might have been made only days before that.

May I say in respect....you know some weird S...:-)
No, there is no "area" for the scraper kit. I realized that about the tooth key, it floats around, a bit too large for the tray to fit correctly.
That round lid, seems of copper, but hints of silver are there.
There are six of these little shells, all about the size of a red kidney bean.
The fob is way strange, just like the whole project I guess.
I would also comment, and this would back up the story about the beginnings of the box, that these tools show VERY little use. I have worn out modern pocket knife blades in 6 or 7 years, several of them in fact, in daily use. Look at the stone, which is a washita stone, I am pretty sure, is rather hard, not one of the soft ones but I have modern India stones that show more wear.
In short, the original owner, dentist though he may have been, didn't remove many teeth.
Thanks gents, oh yeah, this website is the modern supplier of all sorts of neat things.
https://www.eggintongroup.co.uk
Their PR dude, James Goodwin, is fantastic.
Ron

Paul, I am in agreement for sure. The only evidence seen is that everything seems to match the legend behind the box.
Imagine the dentist guy is carrying his tools around in a ditty bag. We know they were not fitted to the box, but he puts his razors and bootjacks and tools in the box. They fit close enough.
Everything present in the box, dates to a decade or so difference. The lack of wear on the tools, and the razors for that matter, hint that the dentist didn't use the tools very often, nor did the razors get used that much. The box itself is in near perfect condition, yet has been glued a place or three over the years. But no outside scaring is found either. Yes, an old scratch or two, but nothing decades of daily use would cause.
I think the dentist passed it on to my GreatGreatgrandpap, my GreatGrandpap, who perhaps never used the blades either.
Why do I say that? His name was Arthur Ryder. He was employed as a drummer by a concern known as Simmons Hardware in St Louis. The head office may have been NYC. Simmons had the Shapleigh name, as well as Keen Kutter, and Blue Grass I think. all famous hardware store.
There is a whistle stop town named after him in central ND. And a tale about why it was named after him. I visited Ryder back in the early 80s. A museum with his picture. He was up there establishing trade. Its still there, along with fewer residents than some of the famous still existing mining towns in NV.
Did he haul this box around? I doubt it, but that simply explains why it has little wear and tear.
No one seems to think the razors are knock offs. Not even the gent from Egginton. but one would think, other examples would be found, with out the "proof" stamps.
As he pointed out, "why make a knockoff, and leave them out"? Good observation. On the other hand, Matlock could probably come up with logic as to why a knockoff maker would leave them off. :-)
thanks for your observations. Ron

Forgot to mention, if someone could ID that watch fob, or what ever that chingadera is, I would smile for a week. it's the size of a quarter, black glass one side, blood red the other. Either birds, or snakes, or maybe eels, wrapped around the shaft/sword/fencepost?

Thanks again, Ron

Originally Posted by RgR

Forgot to mention, if someone could ID that watch fob, or what ever that chingadera is, I would smile for a week. it's the size of a quarter, black glass one side, blood red the other. Either birds, or snakes, or maybe eels, wrapped around the shaft/sword/fencepost?

Thanks again, Ron

Looks like a variation of a caduceus.


There is an extensive Wikipedia article on the association of the caduceus with healing and as a symbol of armed forces medical services in the U.S.
http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...ol_of_medicine

I wish I had helpful information to add about the articles that are inside. I do find it all very fascinating as well as your family story. It's cool to have bragging rights to such things and even cooler to have cool heirlooms as a tangible element. I'm sure you cherish them deeply as I know I would. Thanks for the story.

After a cup or two of coffee it occurred to me that I left out that the peculiarity of the 20-30 year old locks installed on new houses would have been new...but still that age. So these new locks sat on a shelf for that amount of time. Odd by today's standard of "those shoes are so last season." And this in not an isolated occurrence. I can't put a number on it but I have seen it rather frequently over the decades.
Anyway the point was about production dates not necessarily being concurrent with sale date during that period.

Off the topic I know but this is an example of the types of locks I mean.


Subject for a different thread but if you are interested by old guns you might find these interesting also. The engineering and manufacturing of these is quite impressive for the period. This one is not that old: 120 to 135 years but still cool to see. I encounter them significantly older. I am the only guy in town who will work on these now since I have been in the business literally most of my life. It is a skill that is disappearing like typewriter repair.

Thanks, I had noticed the similarity, but would have lost the million dollars on that old quiz show, as i certainly dont recall ever reading or hearing that name.

Thus I had no idea what to search for. I just kept typing in “medical fobs”, and variations “dental”, Army Navy, French foreign legion, German, British, etc etc.

Never found a one, with the snakes same direction as the one you show. Maybe some country back in the day that no longer exists? One the Brits were in, hard to find on a map, even if ya know the name?

I did find similar medical devices for a couple of foreign countries military. yeah it seems world wide.

Thanks for the comments for sure.

The various military ribbons, medals, collar and cap devices, unit patches, and the like are their own history book. My Dad was WW2 of course, had most of the common ribbons a corporal would leave with, but one ribbon that EVERY single soldier, Marine, and I imagine sailor, that served in the Phillipines campaign received. And any body not paying attention we are losing hundreds of them by the day, may the Lord bless their souls.

A guy would have to have a photographic memory to get even a small percentage correct.