Possible Heresy...

So, I have an inkling, a plan...right now, it's just a tickle, but I have no doubt it will, eventually, come to reality...

I am new to this, I know. But both in shaving, and in stropping, I find that the scales on my razors are kind of a pain--they get in the way of easy handling. I know that the scales serve an important function, protecting the blade and keep handlers safe. They are also an important element of the traditional aesthetic of the razor...but are they necessary? Really?

I have an inkling that they may not be--the DA I have has some pretty worthless scales. Soooo...I want to take them off. And not replace them.

I'm thinking of making some kind of sheath-like thing for it, to protect the blade and keep me from losing a finger, and when using, hold it more like a Japanese style...

Am I insane? Has no one never tried this before?

The balance will be horrible, and it will be almost unusable.


The Japanese style has a pretty weighty handle, which makes grasping it and using it possible without scales.

When you strop a scale-less blade all the pressure will be on your fingers. Not only will it be tiring but you will risk losing control of the blade and possibly losing a finger.

Wow, are they really that vital?

But, if the scales are so important for balance, why is it ok to rescale razors with all kinds of different materials and not mess up the balance? The scales on my DA, for example, are incredibly thin plastic--I would say they couldn't be more than 5 grams, how could they balance the steel of the blade? Compare this to a Wapi, with stainless steel scales...I'm just surprised that the blade is that delicately balanced.

I have never quite understood all this talk of balance! I have an 8/8's 1/4 hollow W&B with no scales that I used for many years to touch up my shave with no problems! I also have a traditional Japanese straight with a 5/8 to 6/8 blade with the tiniest daintyest handle I have seen! It was made this way on purpose!
I have never used either for a full shave, but where I have used them, I find no problem!

I don't think blades are so delicately balanced so much as we pay way to close attention to something so unimportant in my book! In other words, I think we we've gotten a little too prissy!

Yes, you are insane. But I digress, I am simply trying to be disagreeable on a personal level with someone I don’t even know. :roflmao

As far as the scale-less razor question, I’ve wondered about that same question myself. Most of the time my scales end up straight in line with the blade and sort of clumsy to grasp. I ‘choke up’ to where the scale is skinny and rarely grasp past the end of the tang. When I really need some fine control my fingers slide up on either side of the blade itself. So I too look at Japanese blades with interest.

I’ve been thinking that a few wraps of duct tape would transform a scale free tang into a custom thickness and less slippery and OOOH so attractive. The price would certainly be right for experimentation.

Why I have not just gone and done this, I don’t know. Probably the same reason I have not just gone and found a beautiful, rich wife, or won one of those pesky Power Ball lotteries. Just lazy.

Hey, is this simmering pot that just popped out of nowhere going to turn into a full blown boil of a heated debate? Let me get in on the action then!:rock:

I also believe "balance" has been overblown. The Wapi is an anomaly; I don't know of any other production razor that is so scale heavy and I do think that razor is "out of balance" and is not enjoyable to shave with as is.

However, leaving the Wapi out of the argument, balance schmalance. I've gotten a kick out seeing pictures in the past (don't remember where or when) where razors are opened in a complete straight line and the razor is being "balanced" at the pivot pin on someone's finger. Why would that matter? Who shaves with a scaled straight like that (like a Japanese razor)? People talk about the HHT being a parlor trick.;);)

Chris L

If you plan on rescaling a blade, I say give it a shot. You're going to take the scales off anyway, so you might as well test out everything (stropping, shaving, honing, whatever) before you put a new set of scales on.

It's your razor and you are using it; do whatever you want. All I ask is that you be careful (:nono:safety first:nono:) and share your results with us:p.

:gl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Welcome to the land of the insane. I too have had similar thoughts, and I have honed a scaleless razor and I tell you it was so easy and fast to hone. I had difficulties stropping as well when I first started because the scales seemed to get in the way, but after practice, you don't even notice they're there.

---

This is my situation--they seem to get in the way. And I can definitely see the honing issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

I don't think scales play too much of a role in balance, if any. Just take a look at the crappy lightweight, non centering, plastic scales Dovo sells. I can't see them having any effect on the balance of a razor whatsoever. And if scales did play such a role, then why not just add a tiny weight to the tang, utilizing the would be redundant pivot hole. That would make sense wouldn't it?

---

Yes, exactly! I just can't believe that this flimsly little scales have ANYTHING to do with balance. And yes, that weighted tang idea is good...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

So why haven't I removed the scales from my razors? Well I believe their primary role to be the protection of the blade. The scales also add to the cool factor of straights, I mean if you saw a movie where someone was holding a scaleless razor, it just wouldn't seem right. Well to me at least. Therefore I left the scales on my razors to keep them traditional, so to speak.

---

I understand that. The scales are traditional, and this is a very very traditional hobby. The look of them is excellent...when they're not crappy. And of course, the blade protection issue is very important. I'm thinking about that one.

But I'm doing it. When I figure out a way to protect the blade, I'm making me a scaleless straight.
First was the custom boar brush, and now the scaleless razor! I'm outa control! :D

I think the balance issue that Chris brought up is what the main issue is.

The metal scales on a wapi are HEAVY. Probably too heavy. This can (I'm not saying it will but it may, could, possibly), due to the weight, throw off the the razor angle at times during the shave. But I assume those with heavier scales grow accustom to that balance and rarely notice any difference. But give them to a person only used to using lighter weight scales and I am sure irritation could follow a less that stellar shave. Again, this is just supposition and scales that are too light are a non-issue in my opinion.

Regarding a scale-less razor, I myself would not want an open blade laying around. The possibility of dinging it or injury are just not worth it for me.

:gl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZethLent

The metal scales on a wapi are HEAVY. Probably too heavy. This can (I'm not saying it will but it may, could, possibly), due to the weight, throw off the the razor angle at times during the shave. But I assume those with heavier scales grow accustom to that balance and rarely notice any difference. But give them to a person only used to using lighter weight scales and I am sure irritation could follow a less that stellar shave. Again, this is just supposition...

---

Indeed. I switch back and forth between a Wapi and a lightweight Rodgers regularly without ill effect

Also I once shaved with a scale-less straight razor. I didn't do it again, but I wanted to try - how can you know until you try? :shrug: (and bless those who don't have to know, lol)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphim

The balance will be horrible, and it will be almost unusable.


The Japanese style has a pretty weighty handle, which makes grasping it and using it possible without scales.

---

I was going to say the same thing, but now I can just say: +1 :)
The scales are a functional item on a western style straight.

Wow, I guess I really AM a heretic!

Hmmm...Well, I can understand that for many high end razors, the balance of the scales is very important. Maybe. Can any restorers/makers chime in here and say how they figure the balance of the scales? Do they work in the material/design/density when they forge the razor or make replacement scales? I'm honestly curious...like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if this was an important element of designing a razor. But I refuse to believe this is true of the Double Arrow. Just...no way. These scales are a joke. There isn't even a wedge--the plastic just widens out at the end...Taking them off would be a favor to the blade!

Well, I am going to do it. Of course, I will be sure to make something to keep the blade AND my fingers safe--I'm no fool. Well, not much of one. ;)

And when I cut my thumb off stropping the thing, you can all laugh at me. I won't mind :D

I'd wager I handle razors a bit more than the average guy both with and without scales. The razors we typically use are of a design that isn't particularly ergonomic or functional without scales. The scales are more than simply a sheath or protective covering for the blade. They form a cross section of leverage that keeps the blade steady and straight with minimal effort. It is easy to torque a blade without scales, but once the scales are on and slid into a using position, it forms a brace that prevents sideways torque. The Japanese took a different direction and simply built a more usable handle into theirs and didn't bother with scales. I think the western design is actually more clever and provides better resistance to torque, which allows you to maintain a steady angle while using it with relative ease.

That said, I know of a great grand uncle in Cuba that my mother tells me shaved with a double edge razor blade pinched between his fingers and sharpened by sliding it inside a drinking glass to hone it. Just because he was able to shave that way doesn't mean it's a method to be recommended. Likewise, you can shave with a razor that is stripped of scales, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I am in the scales and balance are a + camp. Not to mention the beauty of design. Every time I look at a Japanese style razor I feel like the maker forgot something. :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JMS

I have never quite understood all this talk of balance! I have an 8/8's 1/4 hollow W&B with no scales that I used for many years to touch up my shave with no problems! I also have a traditional Japanese straight with a 5/8 to 6/8 blade with the tiniest daintyest handle I have seen! It was made this way on purpose!
I have never used either for a full shave, but where I have used them, I find no problem!

I don't think blades are so delicately balanced so much as we pay way to close attention to something so unimportant in my book! In other words, I think we we've gotten a little too prissy!

---

So, why haven't you used that scaleless razor for an entire shave, hmmm:hmmm:. Methinks that for touchups it may be fine. Heck for touchups a Mach 3, or Fusion is fine, but I refuse to have an entire shave with one of those things any longer either!:D

The Japanese razor with the dainty handle: I've seen and held one of these too. I didn't buy it, as the balance felt bad to me. The difference in the case of the dainty handled Japanese razor and a scaleless western style razor is that you can wrap your fingers around the long dainty handle, but not so much the shorter tang of the western style one.

I just happen to have at my desk here a set of run of the mill, cheap plastic scales. I weighed them--15 grams. They are also approx 14cm long. If you apply Pythagoras' theory, throw in some triginometry, Newton foot pounds (even though I made the measurements in metric!), some fancy equations on the chalkboard, and some hand waving arguments, you will see that they do indeed do quite a bit to balance a razor.

I laso have a set of Wapi stainless scales: 25grams.

Or try this very simple test:

With the razor either closed, or without scales, try to balance it at the tang with on your finger?

--How'd that work out for you?

OK, pick the razor up off of the ground....now open the scales up and try again.

My comp crashed in the middle of my last post...

Here are some shots of my experiment (no pics of the razor falling to the ground under the first test...:p)

The scales wide open I agree is not a real world balance test, but the scales open as you would have them during a shave I do believe is valid. It simply shifts the balance point up to the tang nearest the heel of the blade, as opposed to at the pivot (it's those Newton foot pounds I tell ya!)


Bottom line--sure, you can shave scaleless. I retract my comment about the razor being almost unuseable. It will certainly be useable, just not my cup of green tea.:D

I'm in the scales matter camp. I have a 6/8 THessenBruch that my wife overpaid for at a flea market. Shaves great. In it's original scales which were too light in my view, it shaved well but ddin't feel right. They had degraded to the point they were properly counterbalancing. I ripped off the scales after I warped them trying to clear them in boiling water (don't do that by the way), and did find the scale-less blade easy to hone and strop, and I shaved with it a couple times that way and it was ok, but definitely needed scales. I got some cheapo too light dovo scales, again, worked fine but tthe blade was too heavey for the scales and I could tell. Don't get me wrong, it worked fine, and in fact the fact that the blade was too heavy in some ways focused my technique because the blade was realy leading the way, but it felt like I was overcompensating. Cannonfodder then put the blade in a old but really nice and big set of large plastic scales that he had left over, and it makes a big difference. The scales balance out the blade, and the experience is smoother. I don't feel like I have to consciously keep the blade level like I do in overmatched light scales.

I had a W&B recalsd, and it definitely feels different in the custom scales than it did in the original hone - good before and after, but the weight of the scales clearly affects the technique and feel.

So I think scales play a vital role in balancing the blade - you can do it either way, but if the scales don't balance it then you have to with your grip and technicque.

I can see where not having scales would be doable, but I use my scales when I have them at a right angle. I place my fingers on the monkey tail and either right next to or close to the ninety degree scale. This helps anchor my hand/fingers and without it I think I would have a more loose grip. I've got a few W&B blades I've been waiting to hone/use until I have scales on them. I might hone one of them up scaleless and give this a shot.

I too think that scales are important. They protect the blade and help keep your fingers where they belong. But this is a complicated isue. One would need some insight in, for instance, ergonomics... As pics posted before show, there is a balance issue to be pondered upon.
I never tried shaving with a scale-less blade but I did the marker test on a blade I popped out of it's scales and it didn't feel wrong... it worked for me. But shaving is a diferent thing alltogether I suppose. And scales, for me, seem to add to the confort of manouvering the blade. Not to mention ergonomics of the hand...
But to each it's own, I guess... Donae Caesar quid Caesaris est? (Forgive my crappy latin...:P)

I just use a razor without scales when it's in the restoration process. If I'm going to dress the razor with some new scales, I prefer to hone the blade without the scales. I find that the "balance" here is not an issue.

Totally agree with Papabull.

Scales have a very sophisticated design developed over many years. Some razors are balanced much more finely than others. Lead or pewter was used as the balancing weight because they are soft metals which could be easily shaved of weight to achieve the correct balance.

Most importantly, scales balance the razor in the hand whilst shaving. Just a gentle touch with the thumb will swing the blade effortlessly towards or away from the skin. When you hold a razor, you can tell instantly if it is well balanced or not. I do not know how the manufacturers weighted the scales other than by hand but I do know its not by chance that some razors are superbly balanced.

High quality razors are just a delight to hold and use. You don't have to grip them, they balance in the hand and the natural shaving position perfectly. Whatever the blade size, a good razor is always complemented by a balancing set of hand weighted scales.

Does it matter. Well its like the difference between a fine writing instrument or a bic biro They both work but the one is much more pleasant experience to use than the other.

I remember my Mother would always check new cutlery by checking the balance on a fork. She would say, they all know how to balance the knife, always check the fork or a spoon and that always sorts the men from the boys.

It's the same with a good razor. It should balance in the hand whilst shaving without you having to even think about it.

IMHO if your razor doesn't do this, you are missing a trick.

For me it would make stroping very hard. When I strop my pinky always has some light grip on the scales. That could be a me thing anyone els notice somthing like this?

Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I'd wager I handle razors a bit more than the average guy both with and without scales. The razors we typically use are of a design that isn't particularly ergonomic or functional without scales. The scales are more than simply a sheath or protective covering for the blade. They form a cross section of leverage that keeps the blade steady and straight with minimal effort. It is easy to torque a blade without scales, but once the scales are on and slid into a using position, it forms a brace that prevents sideways torque. The Japanese took a different direction and simply built a more usable handle into theirs and didn't bother with scales. I think the western design is actually more clever and provides better resistance to torque, which allows you to maintain a steady angle while using it with relative ease.

That said, I know of a great grand uncle in Cuba that my mother tells me shaved with a double edge razor blade pinched between his fingers and sharpened by sliding it inside a drinking glass to hone it. Just because he was able to shave that way doesn't mean it's a method to be recommended. Likewise, you can shave with a razor that is stripped of scales, but I wouldn't recommend it.

---

That sums up my feelings on the topic.

I've tried shaving with a blade without scales, although the balance wasn't really an issue, the sideways torque was.

an experiment you say? and all i need is a razor with some broken scales? now that is intriguing. i broke the scales on a Puma i have that needs a lot of edge work so now i am think i will hone it up (which won't be easy) and try it out with no scales before making th aluminum scales i had planned on. the nice thing is i have another Puma that is exactly like it except unbroken so i can do an exact comparison. oh this will be good, very good. or bad if i cut myself, but lets not put that out there.

now i just thought of something here. everyone (well not everyone i guess) is talking about the sideways tork problem rather then balance and my Pumas have a rubber grip which makes for less slipping and a larger spot to grip. this may make a difference on sideways tork, though i can still compare with scales and without.

Jim - forget all the theoretical discussion on this one - pull the scales off a razor or hone up a resto razor like Chee's talking about w/ the puma, then give it a shot. See how you like it. If you like it, stick with it. If you don't then get a brass pin and start peening....

I think that you're going to find out how sucky it is and put the scales back on, but that's just me. I've been wrong once in my life, and this could be the second time. You might like it.

I've got an old W&B in need of scales, but it's shaving sharp. It's really not sooo hard to shave with or anything - not nearly as comfortable or ergonomic as with scales - but it can be done. The really crappy part is actually the stropping. I don't know why, it just feels horridly wrong to me. That's MHO, so YMMV. TTYL.

+1 on what Papa Bull said about torque.

Plus, I simply can't picture how it could be safely and comfortably stropped. Unless very slowly.

A straight without scales seems to me like a boat without a rudder.

JimR,

I think you're on to something here. Pound the rivets out of several of your razors to free them of the burden of their handles and shave away. Report back once you've had a chance to experiment thoroughly.

Personally I like scales on my blades, but I've floated against the current before. You could be on the cusp of a revelation, epiphany even.:hmmm:

Let us know how it goes. Got an alum block? Bandages?

:tu

JimR has been in Japan too long...he's going native!

:rofl2:

I'm not too sure balance is a big issue for me - I currently swap between a Dovo (Micarta scales) and a SS Wapi, and I honestly don't notice the difference in scale weight at all.
Using the scales to control the angle does sound right.
But there are times I wish the scales were just shorter so they didn't get in the way. It would be nice if they could fold in half or telescope to change length. :hmmm:

And while I'm pondering improvements, would it really be so hard to put a locking mechanism on the scales (just for the closed position)? Like a liner lock but in reverse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rajagra

And while I'm pondering improvements, would it really be so hard to put a locking mechanism on the scales (just for the closed position)? Like a liner lock but in reverse.

---

I have an old Torrey that has a subtle gunstock shaped set of scales (and the blade has one of the coolest grinds I've seen). At the toe end, the plastic scales have a tab at the top of the scales. it flexes enough to expand when you open the razor and click shut when you close it locking the blade in very nicely.

I'll try to get time to post pics.

So.....it's been done before but I agree with you, I'm surprised the idea wasn't more prevalent.

Chris L

Rejagra,

I have used both of the razors you have mentioned. They are both quite heavy razors.

The best balanced razors I have used are the vintage ivory scaled blades from a good maker or shop like Mappin and Webb.

The more modern razors just don't have the same level of finesse about them. I actually thought the DOVO although chunky scales was quite well balanced. The Wapi didn't do it for me. The metal scales were too heavy and the blade just sat dead on my fingers rather than rock.

Generally, the older blades seemed to have thinner scales made of light materials like bone or ivory or thin ebony wood.

If I remember the DOVO Micarta had a nice piece of brass to counterbalance the weight of the blade and chunky scales.

What I look for is the ease of rocking. A well balanced blade will rock but always wants to return to an upright centrered position. Badly balanced scales want to fall over. You have to grip the tang harder to stop the scales falling over.

Well, that how I see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PapaBull

I'd wager I handle razors a bit more than the average guy both with and without scales. The razors we typically use are of a design that isn't particularly ergonomic or functional without scales. The scales are more than simply a sheath or protective covering for the blade. They form a cross section of leverage that keeps the blade steady and straight with minimal effort. It is easy to torque a blade without scales, but once the scales are on and slid into a using position, it forms a brace that prevents sideways torque. The Japanese took a different direction and simply built a more usable handle into theirs and didn't bother with scales. I think the western design is actually more clever and provides better resistance to torque, which allows you to maintain a steady angle while using it with relative ease.

That said, I know of a great grand uncle in Cuba that my mother tells me shaved with a double edge razor blade pinched between his fingers and sharpened by sliding it inside a drinking glass to hone it. Just because he was able to shave that way doesn't mean it's a method to be recommended. Likewise, you can shave with a razor that is stripped of scales, but I wouldn't recommend it.

---

Thank you, Robert. This is very helpful...I wasn't thinking about torsion, which of course comes into play with the scales balanced at a 90 degree angle.

I wonder, though, about grip. I think that the scales guide the user's hand into a specific grip--is there no better grip?

Hmmm...We will have to see.

The grip and the balance work in harmony. You can hold a well balanced razor on the top and bottom of the handle with the tips/balls of your index finger and thumb on the gimps. A badly balanced razor has to be gripped more on the sides to offset the tendency of the scales to pull the blade out of position. Well thats my experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphim

So, why haven't you used that scaleless razor for an entire shave, hmmm:hmmm:. Methinks that for touchups it may be fine. Heck for touchups a Mach 3, or Fusion is fine, but I refuse to have an entire shave with one of those things any longer either!:D

---

It just never occurred to me to use it for a full shave!

Just chased this link from the thread about the Korn fixed-handle razor (which I've always thought of as the shaving steak knife because that handle looks like the steak knives my family used as a kid).

Reading the posts above, it seems as though there's some confusion about what balance is referring to on a razor. As has been noted above it's not the balance between the blade and scales with the scales straight that's important - it's not a sword (and even with swords that's the wrong definition of balance). At least when I talk about balance in a razor context, what I'm talking about is the balance between the blade and the scales with the scales bent back 270 degrees, so when I'm holding the shank in your fingers the weight of the blade in front of the spine is partially counterbalanced by the weight of the scales on the other side of the spine. I don't necessarily want them to equally balance out, but I do want this counterbalancing to result in a pleasing feel.