Ideas and Suggestions for SEM honing and stropping research experiment

This thread is dedicated to designing an experiment for measuring the qualitative or perhaps quantitative differences of how certain types of strops can affect the edge of a straight razor. The Device used for evaluating these edges will be a well maintained and calibrated Scanning Electron microscope with a camera. Here we will decide on what experiments will be undertaken, what controls will be in place for the experiment, and anything else that comes up will also be discussed as long as it is related to the project.

Please leave erroneous comments out of this thread as they will not be needed in order for the experiment to proceed. If you feel so inclined to discuss the uniqueness of this project or leave a comment, please do so at This forum page

The SEM power, material, and time is being donated by the company that I work for and me. If you feel that you would like to donate something for this, please PM me for that information. Let it be known that my time is free and any donations will go straight to this project and any leftovers after the project is over will go to the small business the I am employed at to cover equipment costs. The research will be conducted during downtime hours of the SEM and afterwork in order to reduce the cost.

Here is a collaboration of Ideas and volunteered propositions thus far.

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Originally Posted by Bart

One big advantage of a SEM is that you can actually see and do measurements on the width and the shape of the bevel tip, a.k.a. the very edge.

This could finally clear up some questions about stropping and how various stropping surfaces affect that bevel tip.
And a whole bunch of other questions, concerning hones and their abilities too.

...shooting pictures fresh off the hone, after the first stropping session on leather, right after the first shave, and after allowing the edge a day of rest), would you be prepared to run them, for the benefit of the whole SRP community?
Bart.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

...There is an ongoing debate as to what exactly stropping does and why it works. No one knows for sure, we all have theories. By getting more data on the edge before and after stropping, we can better understand what it is that stropping does.

Does it remove burrs left over from the honing process? Does it actually remove metal and sharpen the very edge? Does it remove corrosion? Does it strip an molecular layer away, giving us fresh metal? Does it realign the bevel?

To the OP: If you need more razors to test, I am more than willing to donate some to experiment on. Same rules as Jimmy, I want them back once the tests are over. :D

I can even send over razors that have been used x amount of time with no stropping in between and a razor fresh off the hones. Then you can strop it and see before and after pics. But, you'd of course have to post pics for us. :D

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Originally Posted by joke1176

I will send you some slurry from an Escher, a Japanese, a few Thuringians, and a few coticules for particulate comparison... You could really shed some light on the coticules vs thuringians vs Japanese et al debates.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

I'd like to see what an ATS-34 edge that is considered by the owner and contributor to be a great shaving edge looks like in comparison to a vintage carbon steel edge that is also considered by an owner to be a great shaver.

Can anyone else think of unanswered questions that would be great to be answered by the closer look an SEM can provide?

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Originally Posted by northpaw

Take the razor in after shaving, snap a few, then strop it and snap a few more. Even better if you could somehow find the same "dot" of blade twice. :D

Thanks for sharing these.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

As said above, please also take the time to throw in a nice new DE blade to see what that looks like.


One of the sharpest and smoothest cutting (for me anyway) DE blades I've used was a Feather.

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Originally Posted by rosscollins3

We need to work out an issue. Would it be okay for an individual to send their razor after stropping to be looked at in the SEM? or is that time lapse too long... I think it may be too long as I usually wait until the lather is on my face to stop my razor.

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At this point I'm mostly interested in what stropping does. We have a good idea about what honing does to the edge from your photos and the Verhoeven photos, so looking at various hones only adds a little bit of knowledge to the art.

But there are two areas that are still a complete mystery, left unexplored by Verhoeven.

1) Stropping.

All we have are guesses as to what stropping does to the blade, both for leather and for canvas. One of the things we were pretty sure about was that it removed the burrs from the edge and aligned the teeth, but neither Verhoeven's photos nor yours show teeth, and his leather strops didn't remove the burrs on the edge and from your photos it doesn't appear that your strops are doing this either. So what does the leather strop really do? We know it does something, because the blade feels sharper afterwards. Same thing for the canvas side of the blade - all the guys that are getting a year out of a honing are using the canvas side of the strop, yet many guys can't tell that the canvas side is doing anything at all. So what does the canvas really do to an edge?


2) Dulling.

How does a razor lose its edge? Is it wear or corrosion, or mechanical failure of the steel by chipping of the weak spots in the steel?

What I would like to see is a freshly honed razor, then shave with it, then the next day a pre-strop photo and a post-leather-strop photo. Then shave again then next day another pre-strop-photo and then strop on canvas or linen for 30 laps or so, then take another photo. Maybe then strop on leather for 40-50 laps then another photo.

Then a shot of a razor that has been shaving well but now needs a touch-up, to see what a worn razor looks like.

Finally a photo from a razor that has been used for several months and still shaving pretty well, just to see the difference between a "worn but shaving" razor, and a "worn and needs touch-up" razor. I've got some with a bit over a hundred shaves, but I think there are other members that have razors that have several hundred shaves on them.

One of the most debated issues I have observed is exactly what effect stropping has on the razor's edge. Whether linen is superior to leather, horse to cowhide, or not even necessary. Hence my offer to loan out my 2 1/2 Tony Miller horse/latigo/linen combo hanging stop. Whenever you are ready. :tu

I would be interested in a honed razor v. a stropped razor with linen and leather. I can supply both of those. Then, once you have pics of the unstropped razor, strop it on leather and take pics of those.

Then, you shave with the razor for 5 days with no stropping and see what happens to the edge. I've got two shumates that are nearly identical, so that will cut down on some of the variance.

So the effects of stropping is certainly one issue that will be addressed. As well as the effects of corrosion.

For the corrosion aspect, we could take pictures of 3 ready-shave blades, then put it one in a cup of regular tap water, one in DI water, and another just in air for a certain amount of time and then look at them all again. We actually have a climate chamber that can control humidity and temperature if we feel it necessary to use that.

The same spot can be relocated each time if necessary with the simple mark of a sharpy, as sharpy marks will show up in the SEM and can be easily removed from steel.

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Originally Posted by rosscollins3

So the effects of stropping is certainly one issue that will be addressed. As well as the effects of corrosion.

For the corrosion aspect, we could take pictures of 3 ready-shave blades, then put it one in a cup of regular tap water, one in DI water, and another just in air for a certain amount of time and then look at them all again.

The same spot can be relocated each time if necessary with the simple mark of a sharpy, as sharpy marks will show up in the SEM and can be easily removed from steel.

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I think just letting the razor sit in air for x number of days would be sufficient. Even if we had to wait for 7 days to get results. Then compare it with the razor you use daily and strop daily.

It's not just corrosion that we're interested in, but really the question of how does an edge age? Is it corrosion at all, or do the grains of steel fracture off over time, or what exactly?

The water is one source of corrosive influence, but the lather has an effect as well, as does the sebum that the blade is scraping off, and maybe even blood capillaries that the blade intersects as it scrapes off the top layer of skin. I don't know that we can really simulate that by placing the blade in a cup of water. Plus it's really easy to see this by just shaving with it and seeing what it looks like the next morning before stropping. Is the edge curled and rumpled? Is it pitted and crusted with rust? etc...

Edit: there is the additional question of why some razors get dull just sitting in their casket for a week or so, and corrosion seems an obvious culprit here. But maybe not - maybe the crystals at the edge curl enough over time that when you finally get around to stropping they break off... We really just don't know.

This is exciting. A zillion thanks, Ross (I presume that's your first name).

I think it would be good to first know how many picture's you'll be able to do. I understand it takes about 30 minutes for setting up and shooting the photo. So, how many shots do we have?

Second question: Are we going to take one razor that you give different treatments and shoot each time at exactly the same spot. Or should we prepare a number razors of identical brand and make, that we prepare beforehand and send to you for taking the pictures?

Third: we should realize the responsibility. These experiments are likely not to be repeated for a long time and a lot of people would possibly be drawing conclusions from them. Hence we must be very careful to rule out the human factor.
This means: a new strop must be used, without any residue of pumice stone, or even CrO contamination. Also, in all respect, stropping does rely on a certain skillfulness.

Fourth: is it worth considering bringing a razor professional such as Glen or Lynn to the scene to cooperate with Rosscollins3 on this.

I hope none of these remarks sound disrespectful.

Bart.

I love it when the "Art" meets the "Science".

I always respect what both teach me.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Thanks,

Lynn

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Originally Posted by Bart

I think it would be good to first know how many picture's you'll be able to do. I understand it takes about 30 minutes for setting up and shooting the photo. So, how many shots do we have?

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It really depends on how many razors are in the vacuum chamber at a time. W/o scales it would be easier to fit more in. But I can take as many pictures as necessary, that just means it will take longer, but there is no real dead line as of yet.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Second question: Are we going to take one razor that you give different treatments and shoot each time at exactly the same spot. Or should we prepare a number razors of identical brand and make, that we prepare beforehand and send to you for taking the pictures?

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That all depends on the design of the experiment. I plan to get a lot of information together and write a proposal at one point.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Third: we should realize the responsibility. These experiments are likely not to be repeated for a long time and a lot of people would possibly be drawing conclusions from them. Hence we must be very careful to rule out the human factor.
This means: a new strop must be used, without any residue of pumice stone, or even CrO contamination. Also, in all respect, stropping does rely on a certain skillfulness.

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Yes you are very right about this Bart. This will be under the controls that will have to be dealt with accordingly. I think that if the data is recorded as a part of the experiment, the age and condition of the strop can be recorded as well. If we are going to get brand new strops, then we'll have to pull together and figure something out about that.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Fourth: is it worth considering bringing a razor professional such as Glen or Lynn to the scene to cooperate with Rosscollins3 on this.

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I believe that a professional would have to either volunteer their time or we would have to compensate them for it.


A lot of problems arise when there is no money involved. Universities can write papers like this because they can get grants or use something from their budget. There will be many things that we may have to do without or just live with as our budget as of right now is $0.00. Keep in mind this is a Small or Zero budget operation, which many people have already volunteered to loan their materials.

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Originally Posted by Bart

This means: a new strop must be used, without any residue of pumice stone, or even CrO contamination. Also, in all respect, stropping does rely on a certain skillfulness.

Fourth: is it worth considering bringing a razor professional such as Glen or Lynn to the scene to cooperate with Rosscollins3 on this.

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I'm not sure that it's worth getting too fanatical about this. We're trying to understand what's happening in our real-world shaving after all, and if we try to go for some sort of theoretically pure results we may miss what's really happening in our bathrooms.

For example it may be that "strop contamination" is actually critical for proper strop function. Maybe the little bits of oxide that are coming off the razor as it rusts are acting as an abrasive that keeps the razor sharp. The guys that are reporting year-long edge lives are typically using vintage strops after all.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

For example it may be that "strop contamination" is actually critical for proper strop function. Maybe the little bits of oxide that are coming off the razor as it rusts are acting as an abrasive that keeps the razor sharp. The guys that are reporting year-long edge lives are typically using vintage strops after all.

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this would be easy to add to the experiment.. just get a clean strop and a normal everyday use strop... being too fanatical about this is what will get us closer to a real world understanding... account for all of the variables we can and we get closer to the real relationships.

BTW, are you guys going to call for razors or strops to be loaned for this experiment?

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Originally Posted by Del1r1um

are you guys going to call for razors or strops to be loaned for this experiment?

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The answer is, probably eventually. Nothing is final yet, anything is in the air.

I have 8 Double Arrows, that I use for conducting honing experiments. I can confirm that those razors take excellent edges and that they all respond very similar to a given treatment (they were ordered at once, so they likely come form the same batch.)
I happily contribute them for the experiment, if that would be considered beneficial. Glen or Lynn, or whomever we see fit of preparing them, could set them up and send them to RossCollins3. He may remove the scales, by cutting them off (they need rescaling anyway).

I 'm also in possession of a few straps of horse leather, purchased from Keith (HandAmerican) and still unused. I'm willing to turn them into a hanging strop and a paddle strop, and I have no problem for lending them out.

I am also willing to fund part of the costs involved with these experiments. I do think that the people involved should volunteer their time, but for all other costs, I believe we could raise some funds and I would be happy to contribute.

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I love it when the "Art" meets the "Science".

I always respect what both teach me.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Thanks,
Lynn

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Originally Posted by rosscollins3

I believe that a professional would have to either volunteer their time or we would have to compensate them for it.

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Lynn is the founder of StraightRazorPlace and the godfather of the current straight razor revival. He hones and strops dozens of razors daily (correct me if I'm wrong, Lynn).
If there's anyone that could setup razors for this experiment without any discussion about it being conducted properly, it is going to be Lynn.

Bart.

I think that someone should contact Dovo and Thiers-Issard to ask them if they would like to sponsor some of this work, given the huge impact it could have. Ross, when you have formalized your proposal and experiment design, why don't you send it around to the manufacturers?

Seems to me that in our enthusiasm for the proposed experiment we are putting a lot of weight on Ross. I think that keeping it simple to begin with might be the best policy. The more elaborate we make it the more time it will take to make it happen and the less likely it will happen at all.

If it does happen and if Ross is willing the experiment could be expanded with donations of willing honemiesters and/or vendors. For now Ross graciously volunteered to take a few before and after photos. Maybe leaving it at that to begin with would be a good idea. :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I think that keeping it simple to begin with might be the best policy. The more elaborate we make it the more time it will take to make it happen and the less likely it will happen at all.

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Thanks for the thought Jimmy. I think that while we're in the brainstorming phase It can't hurt to have more Ideas than necessary. We can always subtract things half way through, but it makes it difficult to add them once things are underway.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If it does happen, and if Ross is willing, the experiment could be expanded with donations of willing honemiesters and/or vendors. For now Ross graciously volunteered to take a few before and after photos. Maybe leaving it at that to begin with would be a good idea. :hmmm:

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I plan on doing a full scale report Jimmy, the photos are just good visuals to get the message across. I know some people are anxious about just seeing more pictures, but I plan on doing it all and releasing it all at once so patience will be a virtue here. I'm an engineering student working at a small business with a few experts in metallurgy. So the technical report part is certainly down my ally and resources are readily available, from documents to advice from experts.

RC

If I can help let me know, also Ross where are you located that might help some with planning....

I know this is a very specific idea, but at this stage we seem to be coming up with all possible comparisons.

I would love to see the actual "dulling" effect that a coticule can have on an edge. Or given that the BBW and coti are garnet based, how do edges from each compare.

Or how does a bevel set on a coticule(Bart) compare to one set on more traditional stones.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

...Ross where are you located...

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AL,

Thanks for asking.

To assist with funding, would it be possible for SRP to put up a banner ad with a paypal donate link for the project? I don't have any equipment to offer, and I'm no where near close enough to physically assist, but if the SRP community was able to make small donations, perhaps larger, more ambitious goals could be attained.
I think it is a great idea, and I don't see a reason why several experiments can be devised and takes on, one at a time, over the next while.
Just a suggestion for an order:
1. Razors sharpened using different grit progressions to a "hone finished" state (ie, 4k/8k norton only, European naturals, Japanese naturals, shaptons, DMTs)
2. effects of time on razor edges in different atmospheres, (effects of corrosion carbon v. stainless
3. Effects of stropping post hone, (take 8k norton honed blades as common control, and use a different strop on each to the same "mileage"
4 Effects of shaving, basic (several "typical" blades honed and stropped the same, regardless of performance, then shaved with, before and after pics. a control needs to be found to remove angle and blade shape variables

5. Effects of shaving, advanced (same blades used and stropped for several days photos before and after, to see if blade "rests" or changes in other ways. variables to remove: atmosphere, personal technique, etc.) this will show how the blade "ages"

6 effects of hone interactions ( pics of different hone combos with expected outcomes, photos at each stage, observation of what each stage is doing, ie what is the Cro or coticule doing to the edge. also extreme stropping, various strops from a control point, photod every x "miles of stropping" to see what the point of diminishing returns is.


Yes these goals are ambitious, but if SRP can get a good start, perhaps corporate backing for the project can be attained more easily?

There was huge interest and excitement about this thread up until the beginning of May and then ... nothing for over a month. Does anyone know what happened?

I posted. I must have some post-killer mojo or something. it's not the first time. hopefully this one will come back to life. looks like more lurking for me ;)

http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post760791 sent me (back) here