Has anyone communicated with Hart about these problems? I"m curious what their response is
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Has anyone communicated with Hart about these problems? I"m curious what their response is
I haven't. But I'm hoping at some point that they or someone representing them that has strong business acumen, excellent communication skills and a level head will join SRP much like Ardennes Coticule has, The Well Shaved Gentleman, the outstanding soap vendors and the boutique razor vendors have. IMO open dialogue directly with the demographic you're trying to attract would be a good move in the long run. Maybe it's a bit risky if such a vendor ends up having to defend their product rather than let the product evolve well and improve, but that's where the acumen, communication and cool and level head come in.:) For what it's worth, being an armchair razor maker if it were me, I wouldn't budge a bit in my price because those who would be watching my product with interest if the price was lowered would probably never think the price would be low enough (human nature); but I certainly would open communication with my demographic and modify my product in ways that would appeal to them being as smart and creative as possible to keep such changes as cost effective as possible.
Chris L
I have measured my razor.
- Spine = 0.189"
- Width average = 0.765"
The angle thus (without tape) = 14.28"
I personally do not know about the angle causing the breakdown of the edge but really and truly, I don't care. If it is breaking down Hart will get some correspondence from me and I will get the ball rolling and see what comes of it.
I will not use 2 or 3 or 4 layers of tape on the razor to hone it. One is fine with me and really is a good thing to do for the razor in the long run but any more than that, not going to happen!
Thanks guys,
Richard
Yes but for now we will speculate ad nauseum :)Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
I'm not necessarily asking them to drop the price- I'm asking them to increase the value/bang for your buck (which can be done by dropping price). It would be nice to see at least a few embellishments seen on higher end razors. To start off, satin does it for some, but for example, the only razors I own with a satin finish are 50+ years old and I its cus I haven't polished them....Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Of course. What else can I do in class?Quote:
Originally Posted by hoglahoo
See, different strokes. I much prefer satin finish to mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
Chris L
So then options... Dovo doesn't just sell the "Dovo". Wacker doesn't just sell the "Wacker". TI doesn't just sell the "TI". See where this is going?
I know I've read praise for the satin, but I've also heard qualms. It seems like a very very simple design change and they could be selling two models and reaching twice as many customers... just as I said earlier about Dovo charging an ungodly $70 for a snakewood scale upgrade, and people BUYING it (FOOLS!!!!) if you give people options they are more willing to buy. I realise this is a start up and that may not be economical, but mirror polishing seems easy enough to accomplish with a buffing wheel (which I sadly cannot afford) so I feel its safe to assume that buffing a brand new razor shouldn't add too much man-hours to the equation... They could even say, charge a $20 premium for one. Or cut the price of the other one $20. (Both would actually increase sales- one by establishing a "superior" product- and stimulating the collectors/show-offers to spend more, the other creating a "cheap" option that more easily hooks people who say "I want an entry level Hartsteel!"- one needs more than one to have an "entry level" razor...)
Edit:
Glancing through the forums, not many people say simply "I love my TI" or "I love my Dovo" (except of course when referring to brand quality). I far more often see, I love my TI this and that with a _/8s ____ hollow grind and this and that gold etching and the ___________ scales.
Karl, can I ask...why are you so passionate about this?
NO idea. I'll stop I guess. Sorry I hijacked the thread... its part excitement and wanting the company to succeed, and part sticker shock, and part RAD (and probably part email notifications from SRD- ie easy way to procrastinate is to respond right away... :(). If I had funds I would've bought one to play with instantly but such is life...
Sorry guys I'll zip my lips.
I haven't posted in this thread in a while, but I'd say that the number of people who have put their money where their mouth is is fairly low.
I am much more interested in their view beacuse they have an actual experience.
I can make my own judgment on price, value, profit margins, aesthetics, etc., and none of the posts by those who haven't used the razor has changed it to the slightest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
No, No! I'm not saying you should stop, but you very clearly care a lot about the topic and I was just curious why. Passion is fine!
Gugi makes a good point. I guess its part of my nature to discuss things at length and in depth and that is a character trait/flaw and I apologise.
Though I did chuckle when Gugi saidbecause maybe that in itself is a statement. (not by him but by SR users)Quote:
the number of people who have put their money where their mouth is is fairly low.
Gugi,Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
Have any of the guys that have used it changed your mind?
Well that's true of any new product - the number of early adopters is not all that high and their reviews generally have a pretty large impact on what happens next.Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos
Opining on a subject isn't bad by itself, as long as the speculations and 'analyses' of reviews don't overtake the first hand reviews.
Absolutely. I have a much better idea about the razor now than I had before reading their posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
In the before time (:D), you had two choices: shave yourself with a straight, or pay a barber to shave you with a straight. The number of companies making straight razors was huge! The straight was a household item and a necessity if you wanted to shave yourself.
Straight razors today are a luxury item. Most folks that shave choose not to shave with a straight. The old adage of "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door" still holds true, but it doesn't necessarily apply to luxury items.
The Hart Steel razor is a luxury item. Is it a better "mousetrap?" Any answer to that question will be a matter of opinion. Any decision to buy one will be based on that opinion and the buyers willingness to pony up the dough. Complaining that the price is too high is like complaining that the price of a Mercedes Benz is too high. It is what it is; a luxury item. If you want one then you'll need to pay the price of admission. If you don't think it's worth it, there are plenty of less expensive "mousetraps" that work just as well.
As for Hart Steel... as I've said before, I wish them success, but I hope they have not planned their future on straight razor sales. Considering the name of the company, Hart Steel - An American Razor and Cutlery Company, I doubt they have.
I partially agree with this. I know as a manufacturing consultant involved with process improvement strategies, defining " WHAT IS VALUE" is the main thought. Not only value to the company but value to your customers, employees etc. etc.. If their marketing plan was to "just get one out there and see", then they can see with just a few buyers and read the comments on the forums. I personally enjoy read the posts concerning the good and bad about this new business venture. I think that Hart can learn a TON over this and if this was their thought, I hope the didn't shoot themselves in the foot. I just wonder if the did any blind analysis or testing of their razors prior to launch date.Quote:
Originally Posted by v76
If it was me (and I'm glad it wasn't)and I was doing this. I would have tested some of the mentors from both forums and some of the people who do a lot of honing and resto's. I would have stayed away from the owners of companies and small business's to really get "what people want" answers. But what I see here from some of the posters here, there is a plethora of knowledge that could be tapped.
Thanks to all who contribute,
Bill W
khaos,
Have you ever purchased a motor vehicle? If so, how did ever make it past the sticker price? Is the salesperson out of the hospital yet?
:thinking:
I just finished another shave with mine and it is still as good as the first one.
Mine is holding up as well with three shaves down.
I have it in single rotation to judge the edge holding ability.
No Micrometer so I don't know (or care) about the spine width/honing angle.
If it holds an edge, good. If not, bad. That is what I care about.
-Rob
Not really. Return isn't an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
Per Classic Shaving's Our Policies page:
Both he and I shaved with the razor as is, found the shave unsatisfactory and it wasn't until we were rehoning our razors that we discovered the toe problems.Quote:
We can not accept the return of used razors, brushes, or other used items.
...
All merchandise returns must be in as-received, unused condition, in the original package and any existing factory seals must be intact. Returned merchandise must be received no later than 30 days from date of purchase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
I bought the cheapest car I could find- $200- and repaired it (total cost of $500) and have been driving it for 2 years and 15,000ish miles, total cost of repairs along the way= $400. So yes. I have bought a motor vehicle, let say for $1100, and its still running.
I had a problem with a TI Super Gnome purchased from Classic a few years ago. Classic gave me the address to TI in France and I shipped it back to the Maker. 9 months later due to backlog we all know about, I received a Carbon Song made Super Gnome. Classic doesn't need to see an improperly honed Hart razor, Hart razor does.Quote:
Originally Posted by mparker762
Chris L
IME Will at Classic is real fair to deal with and I gave them a call to give them a heads up on this thread. Remember when there was a question on the quality of a Boker that a fellow bought from Knoxville Cutlery ?
The rep from Knoxville posted in the thread immediately and offered to make it right for the fellow with the complaint. So I called Classic and the gal I spoke to said Will was out of town and that she would let him know. So I presume that they are aware of the situation and could chime in if they had something to contribute. :shrug:
Very cool, Tim. Thanks for posting this and giving us some updates and some background. I'm rooting for you guys all the way.
Chris L
I like Tim's post but it overlooked one important point that needs to be addressed:
How do you get your wife to agree that you need one of these and it's not just RAD? ;)
I couldn't help wondering, while reading Mr. Zowadas' post, will these improvements also increase the cost of the razor? It's my humble opinion that these are needed to justify the current price, and I fear that these improvements may really increase the price from somewhere between normal production and custom prices to the price of a Josh Earl or Joe Chandler lower end razors.
I too wish the whole Hart Steel company success, but I firmly believe that the pricing strategy has been misjudged. Or, it could be that the climate for this type of operation is just that unsuitable.
Let me put this out there as I have been a value skeptic (and I am pretty sure TZ is reading this):
If there were a polished model with jimps, and possibly a nicer set of scales, I would definitely consider getting one when I have the cash and after a few more teething pains are worked out. Its great to know that a manufacturer is actually listening to their (potential/actual) customers.
I like the attraction of an "affordable custom" or "semi custom" but I don't think its quite there. Before I was 99% confident, now I am 100% confident that it will get there and soon. Big thanks to Hart Steel and Zowada. Wish I could hit that button more than once.
They said in the other thread that the polished version would cost slightly more. I'm watching the development of this company with great interest, although the razor is a bit out of my price range and I only go for stainless steel now.Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondesi
Tim, thanks for giving everyone a glimpse at what is going on with Hart. Growing pains can be a good thing if you look at it in the proper light. You have received a lot of good information from people here and hope that the bumps in the road smooth out fast so you can really get down to what is fun. As far as the quality inspection of your razors, there are several things you can do. I will be glad to discuss at any time.
Respectfully,
Bill Wilcox
Thanks, could you like me to the other thread that you are referencing. I appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt
I wish Hart the best of luck, and hope they resolve their issues promptly. This razor shows a lot of promise and needs only a little more development to be a worthy competitor to the more established brands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Zowada
I have moved Tim Zowada's post to the Vendor's Corner and started a fresh thread for it titled "Hart Steel Razors".
?didnt think Tim was tring to sell anything
just let everyone know that the hart makers and QC were watching and the future of things
it kind of killed this thread of free flowing feedback that even i was learning from
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill S
I'm not following what you say... are you saying that now that its out in the open that he's watching people are less inclined to speak?
I dunno. I've been looking around B&B trying to become more active there, and I also stopped over at theshaveden and I think people there have a similar feeling that the price should be cut/options should be increased.
jsut found it odd that his post was moved to the venders corner when he was not selling anything
jsut giving an out line on what is being done and some future maybes
There is no problem with replying to Tim's post in the vendor's corner if you want to get the thread going from there AFAIK .....:shrug:
As far as cutting the price, I don't think that the razor is overpriced considering the level of hands on craftsmanship being done by an individual artisan on what is essentially a limited edition semi custom razor. Just IMHO.
It also think that it is NOT overpriced. Just read what all goes into it in Tim's post in the vendor's corner. The most important thing he said in there was IF you had a problem with a razor then call Classic or Heart. They are building a company, I do not believe that want any bad experiences with their patrons. I am in business as well as many others. I want my customers happy and will make them happy when possible. Anyone that has a problem razor I am sure they will fix the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
For the record as soon as I get the money their razor will be one of my next razor purchases.
I respectfully disagree. Effort doesn't necessarily warrant value. The market will determine if the product has enough features and function to warrant the price that they are asking, but that will have virtually nothing to do with how much hands on work goes into it. Gentleman like Mr. Livi, Mr. Zowada, Mr. Williams, and others don't fetch the amount of money that they do because their work is so labor intensive. They get that money because their products are among the best on the market. If I were to start crafting totally hand-made razors, I can assure you that they wouldn't fetch $100 because they wouldn't be anywhere near the level as these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Besides that, these aren't limited edition semi-customs. These are plain-jane production razors on which we have been offered precisely ZERO options. That's the antithesis of custom, not semi-custom. If they were offering a semi-custom razor at that price, it would be a tremendous value, IMO. Unfortunately, they are not.
I wish them all the luck in the world, but my discretionary income is too difficult to come by to spend on a plain, no frills razor that doesn't represent premium value.
Just my $.02, don't string me up:fim:
Tim's post wasn't deleted, parked or otherwise hidden. I actually found it interesting and informative and I hope you will contribute to the new thread if you want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by L R Harner
The thing is, since Tim is discussing details about a new razor company (that he is involved with) the post is commercial in nature. So, in my opinion, it belongs in the Vendor area even though the post isn't offering anything for sale directly.
ok thats fine i jsuit thought that the venders corner was for sales stuff
i got to talk to time jsut about all weekend at ashoken
just seemed that with the post moved it kind of slowed up the poast here
so far as hart razors i would love to try one at soem point (might try and talk some oone into a razor swap )
i plan on sending tim a razor in 52100 so he can play with different hones and help me get max edge on my steel and heat treat combo and save me a few bucks on what stones work best