HART Razor

This reminds me of a story and this is purely my personal opinion here and does not reflect the staff here.

Once upon a time there was this picture hanging in a gallery which people would come in and look at and most didn't really care so much for it finding fault with this and fault with that even though it seemed to look pleasant enough. The artist didn't bother to sign it with his true name and the painting sat there with no buyers. Then one day a very famous painter admitted he had painted it and came in and signed his true name on it. Within 24 hrs people filled the gallery fighting over the painting price no object.

I hope his name wasn't Cletus.:rofl2:

I mean, that's one of my secret qualms... that TZ didn't make these. He simply taught them. And I also know that means that they can be perfectly competent razor smiths (or ATs as Hart calls them) and they were probably very good artisans before this as well, but that doesn't command the premium- just as the guys at Dovo are competent, a Fritz Bracht Dovo commands a premium, nice scales command a premium, blade deco commands a premium... but the tag Dovo does not (see: Dovo Best...)

And if I'm reading this correctly:

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These razors are “hand made”. No jugs or fixtures used during the grinding, or honing. The only automated part of the whole process is the profile cutting of the blanks. After that, the AT's rough grind the bevels, spines and tang tapers on a belt sander. The blades then go out for heat treating at a very high-tech heat treat facility. The AT's then do the finish grinding on their belt sanders in the same way I do my custom razors. The honing is all by hand on Norton and Escher hones.

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The blanks are machine made (not hand made) they are rough ground, then SENT OUT for commercial heat treat (not hand made, not by the same artisan) then final ground again...

How is this a semi custom again? This seems a lot like Dovo's process of rough grinding blanks, then mass heat treating them, then a trip to the razor shed where a single artisan does the final grind... the video's are somewhere on this site...

Have you ever seen the saying lately that 60 is the new 40 ? Pertaining to age ..... well for a guy of 60 $100 bucks is the new $10 bucks.... referring to buying power. Kids pay that much for a pair of Nikes. When I have the $ I'm buying a Hart made by each of the two artisans. YMMV :)

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Originally Posted by khaos

How is this a semi custom again?

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It is a custom razor, for sufficiently small values of "custom" (engineering joke)

You can have any option you want, as long as it's a quarter hollow matte-finished razor with black plastic scales. (Ford joke)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Have you ever seen the saying lately that 60 is the new 40 ? Pertaining to age ..... well for a guy of 60 $100 bucks is the new $10 bucks.... referring to buying power. Kids pay that much for a pair of Nikes. When I have the $ I'm buying a Hart made by each of the two artisans. YMMV :)

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Well how about I'll send you $25 of my kid money and you can buy me a Hart with your old man money? ;-p

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Have you ever seen the saying lately that 60 is the new 40 ? Pertaining to age ..... well for a guy of 60 $100 bucks is the new $10 bucks.... referring to buying power. Kids pay that much for a pair of Nikes. When I have the $ I'm buying a Hart made by each of the two artisans. YMMV :)

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Good deal:tu

I just hope when it's all said and done, you don't find yourself holding a couple of razors that could be had in a couple of years for 75% of today's price. There is a precedent for such as this.

FWIW, I'm 29 and make plenty of money to afford a pair of these if they represented what I feel to be a good value or even premium product - illustrated by the fact that I've recently (from the spring to now) purchased two Joe Chandler razors, one Robert Williams, and I'm on the list for another of Robert's pieces. I hope I didn't misrepresent what I meant about my discretionary income. I'd much rather support Tim, Robert, Joe, Josh, Bill, Alex (by buying their customs) or even Max or Glen in their restorations than buy a low spec razor for a "semi-custom" price.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Well how about I'll send you $25 of my kid money and you can buy me a Hart with your old man money? ;-p

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I invested it all in lots and houses ..... I won't say what I bought lots of or what kind of houses. :gaah:

I think the Hart razor is good deal, and a good looking razor. I like satin finishes better than mirror finishes. O-1 is very similar to what a lot of classic razors were made of. I appreciate the fact that I can see the tooling marks of grinding, it looks like a well made tool. I appreciate the fact they call the steel exactly what it is O1, instead of some marketing ploy of labeling the steel "silver steel". It looks like a well made honest product. There is definitely more than 250 dollars of very skilled man hours in each razor.



If it is more than you are willing to pay, then do not buy it. If you have bought one, I value your opinions. Constructive criticism is one thing but repeatedly denigrating a newly formed company in a very public way is wrong. Parts of this thread remind me of some threads at that other razor forum where highly qualified and very talented people have had there work judged in a less than fair manner.



Charlie

Well, Charlie, even though you didn't quote me, I'm assuming that was at least partly directed at me. Please don't misinterpret people saying they think something is overpriced as "denigrating a newly formed company".

Your disdain for public criticism of people who weren't inclined to (what I would consider) waste $250 on a product is noted. However, I find it "very wrong" for people to unfairly misrepresent what I say as well. My position on this razor is that it is a low spec razor being sold for a premium price. I'm not saying that the work isn't quality. It is, I'm convinced of this on all accounts. However, it's a low spec razor that has a premium price tag. What's unfair about that? Why is it wrong to state that opinion publicly? No one is saying anything negative about the company or craftsmanship (at least I've not seen it). We have merely expressed concerns about a company that we would really like to see succeed potentially pricing themselves incorrectly. Obviously, the market will bear this out. However, there's little difference in your making judgments on our opinions as being wrong/ bad form or whatever and us saying we think they may have miscalculated. In fact, it's worse because you are making a personal judgment on a person's character.

We'd probably all be better off if we kept to the merits of the razor.

Rich, I'm not sure what you mean by "low spec," could you please clarify that.

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

Since I do actually own a Hart, hopefully the mentors will indulge my opinion on the subject.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

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The O1 steel is a great tool steel, but it corrodes easily. I have several O1 razors and all of them will tarnish within a few weeks given treatment that a TI or Dovo goes years without such signs. The Matte finish makes this worse, since it's harder to get the blade perfectly dry, and if you oil a blade that isn't completely dry then the oil just seals in the moisture... And microscopic corrosion is one of the major causes of dulling blades.

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

The workers may well be highly trained, but they made at least two razors (mine and Riooso's) that were so narrow that they would not hold an edge. TI and Dovo have their flaws, but this is a really fundamental error by Hart that I believe speaks to theirs and Zowada's inexperience with the razor market. Nor do TI and Dovo make the even more fundamental error of designing a razor whose as-specced angle is so low that it must be honed with tape in order to reach the proper honing angle even if manufactured perfectly. This low design angle also contributed to the execution error above because it reduced the allowable manufacturing tolerances below the point where it could be produced with minimal wastage by the staff at hand. Had this razor been specced at a 17 degree honing angle instead of 14.2 degrees - this angle being readily deducible by examination of a dozen or so razors, or simply reading the available texts, then the 0.9 degrees of manufacturing error in my razor would have resulted in a completely acceptable 16.1 degree razor that holds an edge for four months instead of a 13.1 degree razor that loses its edge in seven days.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

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Do those Livi regrinds have matte finishes and plastic scales? The Hart razors are considerably plainer and underspecced than the Livi regrinds. Those Hart scales are awfully nice-looking plastic that look a lot like ebony from a distance, but they are nonetheless plastic complete with casting marks from the mould.

The Livi razors also use a great (though unknown) steel, and are also expertly heat treated - this has been demonstrated repeatedly over several years of experience with them. They also are known to take and hold an outstanding edge. The Hart razors may well have been carefully designed carefully manufactured and all aspects carefully integrated to work together. These are fine statements. Yet the reality is that the razor was designed with a honing angle 3 degrees too low, manufactured with honing angles a further degree below that, and not heat treated to a standard that would allow it to function under those conditions.

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

By low spec, I was referencing several of the observations that MParker has made. While a custom razor's satin finish may be more challenging, due to bringing the razor to full polish to remove all flaws and then taking it back to a satin finish, a straight satin finish is less difficult than a mirror polish (lower spec). The plastic scales instead of premium materials (low spec). MParker speaks to the quality of the steel much better than I do, but from everything I've read and seen, it isn't the "best" that could be used. Consider the lack of jimps, spine work, thumbnotch, etc.... there are no frills, so this makes it a lower spec razor than other razors in it's price range. Also, the chosen grind is much easier to do than a full hollow (for obvious reasons). Had these razors been produced in a full hollow, and executed well, that would have been quite impressive and spoken to just how talented these ATs are.

Please, again, understand that I'm not denigrating the work that these guys are doing. I'm only pointing out that higher spec razors with solid reputations are available for less money. I've already made it clear that I want success for their venture, and I hope that the specs:price ratio gets more in line with the rest of the market at that price point. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

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I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder. :shrug:

I swore I was staying out of this thread but one statement about marketing...nothing else

Dear Hart:

I think maybe, just maybe, somebody should have spent 2 weeks on 3 forums and found out who the 10 most experienced people were, and sent out 10 test razors before ever selling them... Note I did not say give anyone a razor I said have them test them, Honing Shaving Stropping...
Send a questionnaire with the razor and have it filled out... find out where the problems were first...

This is basic Market testing 101, Dear sirs you missed the boat on that one, sorry....

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Originally Posted by mparker762

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

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sorry got to address this O1 is often said to be the best starter steel and that is cause of the fact that you get it up to 1550 and quench inn jsut aobut any oil like quench and it will harden
to heat treat O1 like that is foolish but it will get you a workable knife blade
to truely get the most of the steel you need to soak the blank for at least 10 min at temp (without over heating ) let me know how many blade smiths and beginners have a computer controled kiln or salt pots
often the case is "i heat treat my O1 with a torch and by eye and it works jsut fine for me "

the kiln was my first big $$ buy cause no matter how ugly a knife if you nail the heat treat it can be a good knife (maybe ajust the blade grind to make it great)
no matter how nice the blade looks if the heat treat is bad the blade will be crap

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder. :shrug:

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That was something I was curious about, whether the Zowada razors also had shallow honing angles since they were damascus and tape is more commonly used on damascus, plus Zowada is an advocate of using multiple layers of tape. I had asked about this earlier in either this thread or the one on the other forum with no responses. But from your numbers it appears your Zowadas have 17.26 degree honing angles, just about perfect. With damascus as beautiful as Zowada's a lower honing angle and the resulting requirement for tape is at least defensible. But the Hart is aimed at a different market with different requirements.

Edit: Thanks to Tim Zowada for noticing that I did the above calculation using a 6/8 size. The correct angle for those razors is 14.77 degrees.

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Originally Posted by L R Harner

sorry got to address this O1 is often said to be the best starter steel and that is cause of the fact that you get it up to 1550 and quench inn jsut aobut any oil like quench and it will harden
to heat treat O1 like that is foolish but it will get you a workable knife blade
to truely get the most of the steel you need to soak the blank for at least 10 min at temp (without over heating ) let me know how many blade smiths and beginners have a computer controled kiln or salt pots
often the case is "i heat treat my O1 with a torch and by eye and it works jsut fine for me "

the kiln was my first big $$ buy cause no matter how ugly a knife if you nail the heat treat it can be a good knife (maybe ajust the blade grind to make it great)
no matter how nice the blade looks if the heat treat is bad the blade will be crap

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Point taken.

Nonetheless, O1's low corrosion resistance renders it less than ideal for razors compared to many other carbon steels.

Nonetheless, with all the supposed quality heat treating that went into my Hart it is not in the top tier among all my razors - which does include some comparably priced razors for TI and Dovo. It is not even my best shaving O1 razor (even with a freshly honed edge) - that honor (such as it is) goes to a Robert Williams quarter hollow that AFAIK was heat treated in his basement. Some of the Hart's performance problems are doubtless caused by the low honing angle that I've discussed to death already, and I don't have the equipment nor inclination to figure out what role the heat treating plays in its moderate performance level.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think maybe, just maybe, somebody should have spent 2 weeks on 3 forums and found out who the 10 most experienced people were, and sent out 10 test razors before ever selling them...

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Zowada claims "Before the razors were released to the market, we sent several out to be tested". Yet the only person that has mentioned his involvement in pre-production testing is Chris Moss. None of the others - if there were others - have said a thing. Maybe the others are still bound by nondisclosure and Chris was the only one that received a release to discuss it. Who knows. But Chris Moss did receive several razors from Hart, so he could have been the only tester -that would still be consistent with Zowada's statement. I'm sure Chris Moss did proper diligence in his testing. But if he was the only guy, or even if there were two or three, that is too small. I'm in software and I would consider that more of an alpha test, not even a beta test.

im ok with this
i would love to see how a high finish that was then blued would hold up VS wetness

i am going to keep playing with the different finishes on 52100 also might dable on a few didnt heat treat and cryos

Speaking of prices, I paid more for one of Butch Harner's razors than for a Hart. It is a full custom with spalted maple so maybe we are talking two different things but based on the performance of the 52100 steel and the quality of the workmanship if I had it to do all over again I would do it all over again. :tu

Well, this thread has gone entirely out of the realm of anything I understand, but as someone who is destined to spend a lot of money on razors in the future (i.e. the Hart's target market...) I would just like to say: prospects are not looking good.

Also, Jimmy...You have an ENTIRE DRAWER devoted to just Dubl Ducks? :rofl2:

Jimmy you gave me the idea :rofl2:

Guys a new thread please help out

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post464298

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Speaking of prices, I paid more for one of Butch Harner's razors than for a Hart. It is a full custom with spalted maple so maybe we are talking two different things but based on the performance of the 52100 steel and the quality of the workmanship if I had it to do all over again I would do it all over again. :tu

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I just wanna put out there that this is what I've been saying all along. If there were an (almost) Perfect Custom out there, I would definitely shell out. I'm just saying, like others have, that this really isn't up to spec (price wise).

I know as a 19-yr old engineering student who doesn't own a razor, my opinion will probably be put down then disregarded, but for the sake of the record, here is my $.02:

As an engineer, we are taught to do things the most efficient way possible, given certain restrictions. (Obviously you can't build a bridge that minimizes cost completely, it has to have a safety factor of at least 3- ie can hold 3 times the spec weight, etc etc)
This razors emanates price cuts.
-O1 might be a good steal, but why was it chosen over 52100 for instance? This steel also doesn't have a glistening name or anything special- its ball bearing steel for pete's sake. If the reason truly was it is easier to work with, then that shows corner cutting (NOT bad- for instance it is still a good steel just not the best- but it shouldn't command a premium).
-The scales are plastic, moulded, and are bolted (not pinned). Yes, this is convenient if you want to rescale- but are there replacement scales in production (Dovo and TI sell new scales... and pin kits...)? More over, how often is one going to adjust one's scale tension? More than once a year? Can't this be done by a hone meister when one gets it honed? Or by one's self? Or was this design chosen because it is easy to mass produce injection moulded scales, and easier to bolt than teach a craftsman how to pin correctly. (Once again, NOT a bad thing, but not something that commands a premium)
-We keep dropping TZ's name, but he is NOT making these. The artisans are. He himself said the initials on the razor are both for collectivity, AND TO QUALITY CHECK. (Once again, not bad, this does add collectivity, but its also for a production purpose)

Bottom line, you have a PRODUCTION razor, that shows various design elements of PRODUCTION. Lowering costs, improving productivity. Its smart business, and the product isn't bad. In fact it can be high quality. But it shouldn't command a premium. If TZ ground these himself, that would. But he doesn't. Over at Dovo they do all this too. And call it the Dovo best (or classic, can't quite remember), and sell it at $70ish a pop, not even pretending its as glitzy as the top end ones. Also remember every Dovo and TI is hand made, hand pinned, and hand packaged... Then one has to factor in experience. Sure the AT's were hand picked and trained by TZ, but have they been grinding razors for years? Have they honed a 1000 razors like the honemeisters here have? I mean, I can get blades shave ready, but I haven't set up an ad in the classifieds because I don't have the experience to back it up...


THAT IS HOW I SEE IT FROM AN ENGINEERING EYE. I'M NOT, I REPEAT NOT, SAYING IT IS A BAD THING OR THIS IS LOW QUALITY. I AM JUST SHOWING WHY I THINK THIS IS CLEARLY A PRODUCTION RAZOR AND NOT A "SEMI-CUSTOM". AND FURTHER PROOF WHY I THINK THIS DOESN'T COMMAND A COMMODITY. FORD FOCUSES AREN'T SOLD AT THE SAME $30,000 BASE THAT A MUSTANG IS SOLD AT. BOTH WILL DRIVE JUST FINE AT 55. (this is in caps not to denigrate it but to make sure people see that I am not intending to bad mouth the razor, but rather the price)

Today I shaved with my new Hart razor, made by TV. I am a beginner to straight razor shaving, having shaved with a straight just weekends for the past couple of months. I got a BBS shave. I *like* the scales and balance and finish. I can't say how long the edge will last yet, but I'm very happy with what I got for my money. It was a GREAT shave.

If I wanted a real bargain, I would clean up a razor with a great blade but awful looking scales that I found at a flea market for $10.

Does it matter to me that it is made in the U.S.A.? Yes. Though I still buy products made elsewhere as they fit my needs, giving a new manufacturing concern in America the benefit of the doubt feels good to me. Times are tough, and spending dollars that will circulate to my neighbors makes sense. This is especially true when it comes to purely discretionary spending. I did not "need" a new razor. It was a luxury. I made a similar choice when I bought my first new stereo in twenty years, choosing equipment made by Dan Wright of ModWright and by Nelson Pass from his FirstWatt company. Boy did those turn out to be great choices! I saved up for these purchases for a long time. It was worth it.

In any case, I could take my wife and a couple of friends to a professional sporting event and spend more on tickets, food and drink just for that. Depending on which friends, the drinks alone could top that price...

I'll bet that in a couple of months, I'll be buying another Hart razor just 'cause I like it, as long as I have the disposable cash for another luxury buy.

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Originally Posted by khaos

Bottom line, you have a PRODUCTION razor, that shows various design elements of PRODUCTION. Lowering costs, improving productivity. Its smart business, and the product isn't bad. In fact it can be high quality. But it shouldn't command a premium. If TZ ground these himself, that would. But he doesn't. Over at Dovo they do all this too. And call it the Dovo best (or classic, can't quite remember), and sell it at $70ish a pop, not even pretending its as glitzy as the top end ones. Also remember every Dovo and TI is hand made, hand pinned, and hand packaged... Then one has to factor in experience. Sure the AT's were hand picked and trained by TZ, but have they been grinding razors for years? Have they honed a 1000 razors like the honemeisters here have? I mean, I can get blades shave ready, but I haven't set up an ad in the classifieds because I don't have the experience to back it up...


THAT IS HOW I SEE IT FROM AN ENGINEERING EYE. I'M NOT, I REPEAT NOT, SAYING IT IS A BAD THING OR THIS IS LOW QUALITY. I AM JUST SHOWING WHY I THINK THIS IS CLEARLY A PRODUCTION RAZOR AND NOT A "SEMI-CUSTOM". AND FURTHER PROOF WHY I THINK THIS DOESN'T COMMAND A COMMODITY. FORD FOCUSES AREN'T SOLD AT THE SAME $30,000 BASE THAT A MUSTANG IS SOLD AT. BOTH WILL DRIVE JUST FINE AT 55. (this is in caps not to denigrate it but to make sure people see that I am not intending to bad mouth the razor, but rather the price)

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From an engineering point of view, there's no differentiation between "custom" and "production" that's what marketing people would argue over. The only thing that matters would be performance and ease of use. I'm sure that the performance is there, because O-1 at 63 rc is a very good choice for razors. It's easy to heat treat and can be rehardened if the first heat treat doesn't meet specs. It's very fine-grained, which is great for razors. Shouldn't be too hard to hone, and the edge should last a while because of the hardness. BTW, 52100 is also a ball-bearing steel. Ball-bearing steels seem quite popular for razors! I'm surprised no one has used the stainless "razor steel" AEB-L yet.

Hart just needs to tweak the razor a little more for the usability aspect. The spine seems to need more rounding.

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Originally Posted by cotdt

From an engineering point of view, there's no differentiation between "custom" and "production" that's what marketing people would argue over. The only thing that matters would be performance and ease of use. I'm sure that the performance is there, because O-1 at 63 rc is a very good choice for razors. It's easy to heat treat and can be rehardened if the first heat treat doesn't meet specs. It's very fine-grained, which is great for razors. Shouldn't be too hard to hone, and the edge should last a while because of the hardness. BTW, 52100 is also a ball-bearing steel. Ball-bearing steels seem quite popular for razors! I'm surprised no one has used the stainless "razor steel" AEB-L yet.

Hart just needs to tweak the razor a little more for the usability aspect. The spine seems to need more rounding.

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First off I would like to point out that I acknowledged both that 52100 exists and the fact that it is a ball bearing steel, and suggested it as an alternative. Both were mentioned, both are practical steels with industrial names (ie. not silver steel, sheffield steel, etc.). One has had some flaws pointed out, the other has great reviews. I'm playing devil's advocate.

And you're right. Custom and Production are marketing words. An engineering has to do with marketing... As they apply to Engineering: Custom- "Here's a massive/unlimited budget, I need you to design exactly what I need, to the best specs I propose." Production- "Here is a tight/fixed budget, I need you to design the best product possible, given a few design constraints (ie. must shave)."

And the 63 Rockwell at that thin of an edge doesn't seem to have worked that well (micro chipping). Even if they sold 100 razors, a 2% failure rate is typically pretty bad in engineering.

True engineering you wouldn't plan on having to re-heat treat. Or plan on having to hone often. You wouldn't plan on having to rebuild a bridge "if it, you know, messed up." or say, be easily able to rebuild a roof "just in case it caved in." You might add safety features to catch you if you fall, but you want to make sure the back bone of your project holds. That said, Tim clearly can heat treat well and knows what he is doing and I highly doubt heat treat is going to be a problem. I'm just pointing out that O1 seems like the practical choice rather than the ultimate choice. (resulting in practical price, not this high price...)

Finally, hardness has nothing to do with tenacity. Stainless steel razors are typically a lot tougher to hone it seems (more tenacious, abrasion resistant, and I would expect have much higher yield stresses...), yet their hardness is lower than carbon steel. Honing=structural change in the metal. Loss of sharpness=structural change in the metal. Hardness=elastic property of the metal. Harder things are more brittle, not necessarily more durable. Just look at glass versus lexan.

Obviously a steel smith will know from experience roughly what will and won't work, but ideally one could simply calculate the stresses to determine optimum angles and what not. But once again... we have budgets...(Custom: "hire a materials engineer to design the best edge for me" Production: "use your best judgement to get the most practical steel for me")

I HAVE EVERY FAITH TIM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING I AM JUST ARGUING THE PRICE POINT HERE. TIM CLEARLY MAKES GOOD RAZORS THAT RECEIVE GREAT REVIEWS, AND IF HIS WAITING LIST WEREN'T TEN YEARS LONG I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER A CUSTOM FROM HIM.

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Originally Posted by khaos

Obviously a steel smith will know from experience roughly what will and won't work, but ideally one could simply calculate the stresses to determine optimum angles and what not. But once again... we have budgets...(Custom: "hire a materials engineer to design the best edge for me" Production: "use your best judgement to get the most practical steel for me")

I HAVE EVERY FAITH TIM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING I AM JUST ARGUING THE PRICE POINT HERE. TIM CLEARLY MAKES GOOD RAZORS THAT RECEIVE GREAT REVIEWS, AND IF HIS WAITING LIST WEREN'T TEN YEARS LONG I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER A CUSTOM FROM HIM.

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True, they can't control every quality aspect in a production razor. The edge angle is going to vary no matter what. There's been reports of 13 degree razors which might be too extreme. In my experience, 14 degrees hold up well, but the difference is just be a single layer of tape. Besides that, in production razors, they tend to use more pressure in honing, which can create an edge angle more acute than measured. Factory shave-readiness is not really an issue though, as all straight razor users know how to hone.

I've also found that stainless steels don't need to be as hard to shave as long. I think my Friodurs are only 57-58 hrc, but can give me 14 shaves between stroppings. Of course, modern stainless steels should last even longer, perhaps much longer.

Regarding the microchipping, if it's tempered correctly that shouldn't happen. O-1 is still quite tough at 63 rc, I have a knife made like this and it can take 60 degree bends.

You said in your OP "the edge should last a while because of the hardness" and I'm saying hardness has less to do with the edge holding that the steel itself.

The amount of pressure used when honing a quarter wedge will maybe change the angle .000001 deg. Steel has a very very very high modulus of elasticity, so it takes a lot of force to move it a little bit. You would literally have to put your body weight into it to make it flex significantly.

And it is advertised as being shave ready off of an Escher. If Lynn sold me a razor shave ready I wouldn't say, oh well, its new so I might as well hone it myself... if we're gonna complain about Dovo and TI not being shave ready, same rules apply...

With regard to microchipping- two razors microchipped. So you're saying they aren't heat treated well? Uh-oh... (I don't think this is the issue I think the angle is and I think the change they made probably sorted it out... TZ seems on top of that)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

With regard to microchipping- two razors microchipped. So you're saying they aren't heat treated well? Uh-oh... (I don't think this is the issue I think the angle is and I think the change they made probably sorted it out... TZ seems on top of that)

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I wouldn't be so sure of that until seeing the microscope pictures for myself.

In any case, I have a 1095 razor hardened to 65 hrc, and it has no microchipping issues. It's all in the heat treat. Certainly, I know O-1 can easily handle 63 rc w/o being brittle, 13 degrees or not. I've tried 12 degrees with my 1095 razor and the only negative was that the edge didn't last through the shave.

How can you "try" 12 deg? did you shave the spine down?

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Originally Posted by cotdt

I wouldn't be so sure of that until seeing the microscope pictures for myself.

In any case, I have a 1095 razor hardened to 65 hrc, and it has no microchipping issues. It's all in the heat treat. Certainly, I know O-1 can easily handle 63 rc w/o being brittle, 13 degrees or not. I've tried 12 degrees with my 1095 razor and the only negative was that the edge didn't last through the shave.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by khaos

How can you "try" 12 deg? did you shave the spine down?

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Yes. Put the tape on the edge of the razor and hone the spine. I've also made razors that are 12 degrees originally. Had to increase to 14 though.

all i ask is not to start comparring me with other makers in this thread so far as oo i do this or i use that and "other maker uses XXX"


i use 52100 cause of i wanted to work with the steel in kitchen knives and found a good deal on a sheet of it

im betting sone of the reasons that Tim while helping spec out steel picked O1 would be
1 available sizes (you have no clue how hard it was to find sheet 52100 less then3/8 inch thick)
2nd not ease of heat treat but the consistency of heat treat in a semi production world (i might work 3 blades at a time in my kiln )
3rd that Tim knows O1 and L6 but L6 would be next to imposssable to find in sheet
since i had been asked befor abot what steels i have used in razors
1084 ,1095, O1 52100, cpm3v, cpm154cm and i might be leaving some out
had i not found a sheet of 52100 i would likly be working O1 or 1084 maybe W2 as i have a pile of that to play with too

Sorry Butch didn't mean to offend you. I was just trying to make a point, that you backed up. The steel was probably chosen because it was practical and cost effective in this situation. Not because it was some god-steel.

its not a problem i just want to make sure that i not come into a ****ing match
i have not used any new razor in my life sept for my one make (have a old one and fixing up another )
and the only think i can say about Tims razors are that they look nice (never seen them in life ) and the harts look like a great deal
i find all too often that makers get pitted agenst each other and it never ends well
the makers that i know all love the making and all have different ways about makeing a great knife/razor

I feel that is a great point Butch, and I tried as much as I could to point out that I have no problem with Tim or the other razor smiths, I'm sure they are all very competent and I truly am impressed by your work. I actually am very inspired to take up razor-making as well, but I would have to first become certified to use the equipment here at the University, as I cannot afford my own stuff. I feel custom razors are works of art and shouldn't be compared.

The Hart however, is neither made by Tim, nor custom made. It's a production razor. We compare Dovo's, TI's and others all the time, so I feel its only fair to toss the Hart into the mix.

Anyways. I've said enough for tonight and will drop back to lurking. Sorry for getting caught up again guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cotdt

I wouldn't be so sure of that until seeing the microscope pictures for myself.

In any case, I have a 1095 razor hardened to 65 hrc, and it has no microchipping issues. It's all in the heat treat. Certainly, I know O-1 can easily handle 63 rc w/o being brittle, 13 degrees or not. I've tried 12 degrees with my 1095 razor and the only negative was that the edge didn't last through the shave.

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I've got an O1 razor at 64-65RC and it doesn't have brittleness issues either. Honing is a bit interesting, but not because of the brittleness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cotdt

From an engineering point of view, there's no differentiation between "custom" and "production" that's what marketing people would argue over. The only thing that matters would be performance and ease of use. I'm sure that the performance is there, because O-1 at 63 rc is a very good choice for razors. It's easy to heat treat and can be rehardened if the first heat treat doesn't meet specs. It's very fine-grained, which is great for razors. Shouldn't be too hard to hone, and the edge should last a while because of the hardness. BTW, 52100 is also a ball-bearing steel. Ball-bearing steels seem quite popular for razors! I'm surprised no one has used the stainless "razor steel" AEB-L yet.

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I don't believe that O-1 is a particularly great choice for razors. Every O-1 razor I've owned has been particularly prone to corrosion, generally showing up early and often as tarnish. No other razor that I own has this problem to such a degree - normal drying and oiling has kept them tarnish free for years. But the O-1's get cleaned with flitz every few dozen shaves.

As for the edge longevity, as best as I can tell my edges are generally dulling from corrosive damage, not from mechanical wear due to lack of hardness or chipping. This was also identified as the major cause of dulling in that 1929 popular mechanics article, and is the reason the commercial razor blade manufacturers long ago switched to stainless steel. Stainless steel straight razors such as the Henckels Friodur are reputed for holding an edge longer than carbon steel razors, yet have relatively soft steel (about 57rc).

Edit: I should modify this statement somewhat. Back when I was stropping primarily on leather I believe that my edges were dying of accumulated corrosion damage. Some time ago I started stropping primarily on linen in an attempt to ensure that the corrosion was cleaned off each day, with the result that my edges are lasting 10x+ longer, and I believe mechanical stress is now playing a much larger role in dulling the razors.

Why are there so many posts on this thread from people that down own a Hart razor? At first I found this thread useful - very good, knowledgable reviews from experienced straight users that actually bought a Hart razor. And I think (I can't even figure it out anymore with all the filler that now makes up the bulk of the thread) a couple people liked their razor, and a couple didn't. That was useful to me in thinking about buying one down the road.

But there are multiple double digit posts here from people that don't own one, with very strong philosophical views on how outrageous the razors are. I just don't get that, and it's made the thread impossible to navigate.

I'm glad Hart is doing this. I'm glad they are getting constructive feedback, which is important. But the B&B like follow on rants by people that haven't bought one don't make sense to me, and if we want companies like Hart to stick their necks out into this field and incur the start up costs and lose the time they could spending more easily on other ventures, we should keep the criticism constructive (and most of it should be from people that have, um, actually, um, used one).

Ranting about how shocking it is to charge $200 for a razor is just stale - reminds of Joel's rant that Robert Williams dare charge more than $300 for a custom, when a month later people were fighting for space in line to pay $1000.

It's awesome Hart is doing this. Let's support it and get them the feedback they need to kick ass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

I don't believe that O-1 is a particularly great choice for razors. Every O-1 razor I've owned has been particularly prone to corrosion, generally showing up early and often as tarnish. No other razor that I own has this problem to such a degree - normal drying and oiling has kept them tarnish free for years. But the O-1's get cleaned with flitz every few dozen shaves.

As for the edge longevity, as best as I can tell my edges are generally dulling from corrosive damage, not from mechanical wear due to lack of hardness or chipping. This was also identified as the major cause of dulling in that 1929 popular mechanics article, and is the reason the commercial razor blade manufacturers long ago switched to stainless steel. Stainless steel straight razors such as the Henckels Friodur are reputed for holding an edge longer than carbon steel razors, yet have relatively soft steel (about 57rc).

Edit: I should modify this statement somewhat. Back when I was stropping primarily on leather I believe that my edges were dying of accumulated corrosion damage. Some time ago I started stropping primarily on linen in an attempt to ensure that the corrosion was cleaned off each day, with the result that my edges are lasting 10x+ longer, and I believe mechanical stress is now playing a much larger role in dulling the razors.

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Ah, serendipity my old friend. I just posted a link to this article (actually a 1931 article) here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...le-1931-a.html

Just my 2 cts after reading the posts in this thread.

When you pay 200 USD or more for a straight you should be able to hone it like we hone other razors: with the spine flat on the hone.
If these razors are made such that you need an increased angle over the angle the spine provides I feel the manufacturer should warn future buyers in advance or provide a contraption that you can slip over the spine to provide the right honing angle. I think it is not on to sell expensive razors and expect buyers to experiment with layer on layer of tape before they get the right honing angle.

Disclaimer: I do not own a Hart razor and will not buy one until I am satisfied the manufacturer has sorted this problem out.