Thread: HART Razor

Well, this thread has gone entirely out of the realm of anything I understand, but as someone who is destined to spend a lot of money on razors in the future (i.e. the Hart's target market...) I would just like to say: prospects are not looking good.

Also, Jimmy...You have an ENTIRE DRAWER devoted to just Dubl Ducks?

Jimmy you gave me the idea

Guys a new thread please help out

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...tml#post464298

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Speaking of prices, I paid more for one of Butch Harner's razors than for a Hart. It is a full custom with spalted maple so maybe we are talking two different things but based on the performance of the 52100 steel and the quality of the workmanship if I had it to do all over again I would do it all over again.

I just wanna put out there that this is what I've been saying all along. If there were an (almost) Perfect Custom out there, I would definitely shell out. I'm just saying, like others have, that this really isn't up to spec (price wise).

I know as a 19-yr old engineering student who doesn't own a razor, my opinion will probably be put down then disregarded, but for the sake of the record, here is my $.02:

As an engineer, we are taught to do things the most efficient way possible, given certain restrictions. (Obviously you can't build a bridge that minimizes cost completely, it has to have a safety factor of at least 3- ie can hold 3 times the spec weight, etc etc)
This razors emanates price cuts.
-O1 might be a good steal, but why was it chosen over 52100 for instance? This steel also doesn't have a glistening name or anything special- its ball bearing steel for pete's sake. If the reason truly was it is easier to work with, then that shows corner cutting (NOT bad- for instance it is still a good steel just not the best- but it shouldn't command a premium).
-The scales are plastic, moulded, and are bolted (not pinned). Yes, this is convenient if you want to rescale- but are there replacement scales in production (Dovo and TI sell new scales... and pin kits...)? More over, how often is one going to adjust one's scale tension? More than once a year? Can't this be done by a hone meister when one gets it honed? Or by one's self? Or was this design chosen because it is easy to mass produce injection moulded scales, and easier to bolt than teach a craftsman how to pin correctly. (Once again, NOT a bad thing, but not something that commands a premium)
-We keep dropping TZ's name, but he is NOT making these. The artisans are. He himself said the initials on the razor are both for collectivity, AND TO QUALITY CHECK. (Once again, not bad, this does add collectivity, but its also for a production purpose)

Bottom line, you have a PRODUCTION razor, that shows various design elements of PRODUCTION. Lowering costs, improving productivity. Its smart business, and the product isn't bad. In fact it can be high quality. But it shouldn't command a premium. If TZ ground these himself, that would. But he doesn't. Over at Dovo they do all this too. And call it the Dovo best (or classic, can't quite remember), and sell it at $70ish a pop, not even pretending its as glitzy as the top end ones. Also remember every Dovo and TI is hand made, hand pinned, and hand packaged... Then one has to factor in experience. Sure the AT's were hand picked and trained by TZ, but have they been grinding razors for years? Have they honed a 1000 razors like the honemeisters here have? I mean, I can get blades shave ready, but I haven't set up an ad in the classifieds because I don't have the experience to back it up...


THAT IS HOW I SEE IT FROM AN ENGINEERING EYE. I'M NOT, I REPEAT NOT, SAYING IT IS A BAD THING OR THIS IS LOW QUALITY. I AM JUST SHOWING WHY I THINK THIS IS CLEARLY A PRODUCTION RAZOR AND NOT A "SEMI-CUSTOM". AND FURTHER PROOF WHY I THINK THIS DOESN'T COMMAND A COMMODITY. FORD FOCUSES AREN'T SOLD AT THE SAME $30,000 BASE THAT A MUSTANG IS SOLD AT. BOTH WILL DRIVE JUST FINE AT 55. (this is in caps not to denigrate it but to make sure people see that I am not intending to bad mouth the razor, but rather the price)

Today I shaved with my new Hart razor, made by TV. I am a beginner to straight razor shaving, having shaved with a straight just weekends for the past couple of months. I got a BBS shave. I *like* the scales and balance and finish. I can't say how long the edge will last yet, but I'm very happy with what I got for my money. It was a GREAT shave.

If I wanted a real bargain, I would clean up a razor with a great blade but awful looking scales that I found at a flea market for $10.

Does it matter to me that it is made in the U.S.A.? Yes. Though I still buy products made elsewhere as they fit my needs, giving a new manufacturing concern in America the benefit of the doubt feels good to me. Times are tough, and spending dollars that will circulate to my neighbors makes sense. This is especially true when it comes to purely discretionary spending. I did not "need" a new razor. It was a luxury. I made a similar choice when I bought my first new stereo in twenty years, choosing equipment made by Dan Wright of ModWright and by Nelson Pass from his FirstWatt company. Boy did those turn out to be great choices! I saved up for these purchases for a long time. It was worth it.

In any case, I could take my wife and a couple of friends to a professional sporting event and spend more on tickets, food and drink just for that. Depending on which friends, the drinks alone could top that price...

I'll bet that in a couple of months, I'll be buying another Hart razor just 'cause I like it, as long as I have the disposable cash for another luxury buy.

Originally Posted by khaos

Bottom line, you have a PRODUCTION razor, that shows various design elements of PRODUCTION. Lowering costs, improving productivity. Its smart business, and the product isn't bad. In fact it can be high quality. But it shouldn't command a premium. If TZ ground these himself, that would. But he doesn't. Over at Dovo they do all this too. And call it the Dovo best (or classic, can't quite remember), and sell it at $70ish a pop, not even pretending its as glitzy as the top end ones. Also remember every Dovo and TI is hand made, hand pinned, and hand packaged... Then one has to factor in experience. Sure the AT's were hand picked and trained by TZ, but have they been grinding razors for years? Have they honed a 1000 razors like the honemeisters here have? I mean, I can get blades shave ready, but I haven't set up an ad in the classifieds because I don't have the experience to back it up...


THAT IS HOW I SEE IT FROM AN ENGINEERING EYE. I'M NOT, I REPEAT NOT, SAYING IT IS A BAD THING OR THIS IS LOW QUALITY. I AM JUST SHOWING WHY I THINK THIS IS CLEARLY A PRODUCTION RAZOR AND NOT A "SEMI-CUSTOM". AND FURTHER PROOF WHY I THINK THIS DOESN'T COMMAND A COMMODITY. FORD FOCUSES AREN'T SOLD AT THE SAME $30,000 BASE THAT A MUSTANG IS SOLD AT. BOTH WILL DRIVE JUST FINE AT 55. (this is in caps not to denigrate it but to make sure people see that I am not intending to bad mouth the razor, but rather the price)

From an engineering point of view, there's no differentiation between "custom" and "production" that's what marketing people would argue over. The only thing that matters would be performance and ease of use. I'm sure that the performance is there, because O-1 at 63 rc is a very good choice for razors. It's easy to heat treat and can be rehardened if the first heat treat doesn't meet specs. It's very fine-grained, which is great for razors. Shouldn't be too hard to hone, and the edge should last a while because of the hardness. BTW, 52100 is also a ball-bearing steel. Ball-bearing steels seem quite popular for razors! I'm surprised no one has used the stainless "razor steel" AEB-L yet.

Hart just needs to tweak the razor a little more for the usability aspect. The spine seems to need more rounding.

Originally Posted by cotdt

From an engineering point of view, there's no differentiation between "custom" and "production" that's what marketing people would argue over. The only thing that matters would be performance and ease of use. I'm sure that the performance is there, because O-1 at 63 rc is a very good choice for razors. It's easy to heat treat and can be rehardened if the first heat treat doesn't meet specs. It's very fine-grained, which is great for razors. Shouldn't be too hard to hone, and the edge should last a while because of the hardness. BTW, 52100 is also a ball-bearing steel. Ball-bearing steels seem quite popular for razors! I'm surprised no one has used the stainless "razor steel" AEB-L yet.

Hart just needs to tweak the razor a little more for the usability aspect. The spine seems to need more rounding.

First off I would like to point out that I acknowledged both that 52100 exists and the fact that it is a ball bearing steel, and suggested it as an alternative. Both were mentioned, both are practical steels with industrial names (ie. not silver steel, sheffield steel, etc.). One has had some flaws pointed out, the other has great reviews. I'm playing devil's advocate.

And you're right. Custom and Production are marketing words. An engineering has to do with marketing... As they apply to Engineering: Custom- "Here's a massive/unlimited budget, I need you to design exactly what I need, to the best specs I propose." Production- "Here is a tight/fixed budget, I need you to design the best product possible, given a few design constraints (ie. must shave)."

And the 63 Rockwell at that thin of an edge doesn't seem to have worked that well (micro chipping). Even if they sold 100 razors, a 2% failure rate is typically pretty bad in engineering.

True engineering you wouldn't plan on having to re-heat treat. Or plan on having to hone often. You wouldn't plan on having to rebuild a bridge "if it, you know, messed up." or say, be easily able to rebuild a roof "just in case it caved in." You might add safety features to catch you if you fall, but you want to make sure the back bone of your project holds. That said, Tim clearly can heat treat well and knows what he is doing and I highly doubt heat treat is going to be a problem. I'm just pointing out that O1 seems like the practical choice rather than the ultimate choice. (resulting in practical price, not this high price...)

Finally, hardness has nothing to do with tenacity. Stainless steel razors are typically a lot tougher to hone it seems (more tenacious, abrasion resistant, and I would expect have much higher yield stresses...), yet their hardness is lower than carbon steel. Honing=structural change in the metal. Loss of sharpness=structural change in the metal. Hardness=elastic property of the metal. Harder things are more brittle, not necessarily more durable. Just look at glass versus lexan.

Obviously a steel smith will know from experience roughly what will and won't work, but ideally one could simply calculate the stresses to determine optimum angles and what not. But once again... we have budgets...(Custom: "hire a materials engineer to design the best edge for me" Production: "use your best judgement to get the most practical steel for me")

I HAVE EVERY FAITH TIM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING I AM JUST ARGUING THE PRICE POINT HERE. TIM CLEARLY MAKES GOOD RAZORS THAT RECEIVE GREAT REVIEWS, AND IF HIS WAITING LIST WEREN'T TEN YEARS LONG I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER A CUSTOM FROM HIM.

Originally Posted by khaos

Obviously a steel smith will know from experience roughly what will and won't work, but ideally one could simply calculate the stresses to determine optimum angles and what not. But once again... we have budgets...(Custom: "hire a materials engineer to design the best edge for me" Production: "use your best judgement to get the most practical steel for me")

I HAVE EVERY FAITH TIM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING I AM JUST ARGUING THE PRICE POINT HERE. TIM CLEARLY MAKES GOOD RAZORS THAT RECEIVE GREAT REVIEWS, AND IF HIS WAITING LIST WEREN'T TEN YEARS LONG I WOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER A CUSTOM FROM HIM.

True, they can't control every quality aspect in a production razor. The edge angle is going to vary no matter what. There's been reports of 13 degree razors which might be too extreme. In my experience, 14 degrees hold up well, but the difference is just be a single layer of tape. Besides that, in production razors, they tend to use more pressure in honing, which can create an edge angle more acute than measured. Factory shave-readiness is not really an issue though, as all straight razor users know how to hone.

I've also found that stainless steels don't need to be as hard to shave as long. I think my Friodurs are only 57-58 hrc, but can give me 14 shaves between stroppings. Of course, modern stainless steels should last even longer, perhaps much longer.

Regarding the microchipping, if it's tempered correctly that shouldn't happen. O-1 is still quite tough at 63 rc, I have a knife made like this and it can take 60 degree bends.

You said in your OP "the edge should last a while because of the hardness" and I'm saying hardness has less to do with the edge holding that the steel itself.

The amount of pressure used when honing a quarter wedge will maybe change the angle .000001 deg. Steel has a very very very high modulus of elasticity, so it takes a lot of force to move it a little bit. You would literally have to put your body weight into it to make it flex significantly.

And it is advertised as being shave ready off of an Escher. If Lynn sold me a razor shave ready I wouldn't say, oh well, its new so I might as well hone it myself... if we're gonna complain about Dovo and TI not being shave ready, same rules apply...

With regard to microchipping- two razors microchipped. So you're saying they aren't heat treated well? Uh-oh... (I don't think this is the issue I think the angle is and I think the change they made probably sorted it out... TZ seems on top of that)

Originally Posted by khaos

With regard to microchipping- two razors microchipped. So you're saying they aren't heat treated well? Uh-oh... (I don't think this is the issue I think the angle is and I think the change they made probably sorted it out... TZ seems on top of that)

I wouldn't be so sure of that until seeing the microscope pictures for myself.

In any case, I have a 1095 razor hardened to 65 hrc, and it has no microchipping issues. It's all in the heat treat. Certainly, I know O-1 can easily handle 63 rc w/o being brittle, 13 degrees or not. I've tried 12 degrees with my 1095 razor and the only negative was that the edge didn't last through the shave.

How can you "try" 12 deg? did you shave the spine down?

Originally Posted by cotdt

I wouldn't be so sure of that until seeing the microscope pictures for myself.

In any case, I have a 1095 razor hardened to 65 hrc, and it has no microchipping issues. It's all in the heat treat. Certainly, I know O-1 can easily handle 63 rc w/o being brittle, 13 degrees or not. I've tried 12 degrees with my 1095 razor and the only negative was that the edge didn't last through the shave.