Thread: HART Razor

Rich, I'm not sure what you mean by "low spec," could you please clarify that.

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

Since I do actually own a Hart, hopefully the mentors will indulge my opinion on the subject.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I don't know much about making razors, but it seems to me like the steel is top notch, the workers are highly trained, the heat-treating process/location was carefully selected, and all of these elements were selected to work together (TZ posted about the steel, quenching, and heat treatment in the post that got moved).

The O1 steel is a great tool steel, but it corrodes easily. I have several O1 razors and all of them will tarnish within a few weeks given treatment that a TI or Dovo goes years without such signs. The Matte finish makes this worse, since it's harder to get the blade perfectly dry, and if you oil a blade that isn't completely dry then the oil just seals in the moisture... And microscopic corrosion is one of the major causes of dulling blades.

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

The workers may well be highly trained, but they made at least two razors (mine and Riooso's) that were so narrow that they would not hold an edge. TI and Dovo have their flaws, but this is a really fundamental error by Hart that I believe speaks to theirs and Zowada's inexperience with the razor market. Nor do TI and Dovo make the even more fundamental error of designing a razor whose as-specced angle is so low that it must be honed with tape in order to reach the proper honing angle even if manufactured perfectly. This low design angle also contributed to the execution error above because it reduced the allowable manufacturing tolerances below the point where it could be produced with minimal wastage by the staff at hand. Had this razor been specced at a 17 degree honing angle instead of 14.2 degrees - this angle being readily deducible by examination of a dozen or so razors, or simply reading the available texts, then the 0.9 degrees of manufacturing error in my razor would have resulted in a completely acceptable 16.1 degree razor that holds an edge for four months instead of a 13.1 degree razor that loses its edge in seven days.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Sure they look pretty plain, but then again so do many Livi regrinds...

Do those Livi regrinds have matte finishes and plastic scales? The Hart razors are considerably plainer and underspecced than the Livi regrinds. Those Hart scales are awfully nice-looking plastic that look a lot like ebony from a distance, but they are nonetheless plastic complete with casting marks from the mould.

The Livi razors also use a great (though unknown) steel, and are also expertly heat treated - this has been demonstrated repeatedly over several years of experience with them. They also are known to take and hold an outstanding edge. The Hart razors may well have been carefully designed carefully manufactured and all aspects carefully integrated to work together. These are fine statements. Yet the reality is that the razor was designed with a honing angle 3 degrees too low, manufactured with honing angles a further degree below that, and not heat treated to a standard that would allow it to function under those conditions.

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

By low spec, I was referencing several of the observations that MParker has made. While a custom razor's satin finish may be more challenging, due to bringing the razor to full polish to remove all flaws and then taking it back to a satin finish, a straight satin finish is less difficult than a mirror polish (lower spec). The plastic scales instead of premium materials (low spec). MParker speaks to the quality of the steel much better than I do, but from everything I've read and seen, it isn't the "best" that could be used. Consider the lack of jimps, spine work, thumbnotch, etc.... there are no frills, so this makes it a lower spec razor than other razors in it's price range. Also, the chosen grind is much easier to do than a full hollow (for obvious reasons). Had these razors been produced in a full hollow, and executed well, that would have been quite impressive and spoken to just how talented these ATs are.

Please, again, understand that I'm not denigrating the work that these guys are doing. I'm only pointing out that higher spec razors with solid reputations are available for less money. I've already made it clear that I want success for their venture, and I hope that the specsrice ratio gets more in line with the rest of the market at that price point. That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Now I am sure that the Hart guys will attempt to rectify their errors quickly. But I am dismayed that their stated "fix" to the honing angle problem is to reduce their known error by 60%. Not fix it completely by going to a 17 degree angle, no. Just reduce it by 60% by going from a 14.2 degree spec to a 16 degree spec.

I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder.

I swore I was staying out of this thread but one statement about marketing...nothing else

Dear Hart:

I think maybe, just maybe, somebody should have spent 2 weeks on 3 forums and found out who the 10 most experienced people were, and sent out 10 test razors before ever selling them... Note I did not say give anyone a razor I said have them test them, Honing Shaving Stropping...
Send a questionnaire with the razor and have it filled out... find out where the problems were first...

This is basic Market testing 101, Dear sirs you missed the boat on that one, sorry....

Originally Posted by mparker762

The heat treating process and service may have been carefully selected, but O1 is famously easy to heat treat, it's one of the steels that are usually recommended for beginners making their first knives because it's so easy to work and treat to a high level of quality.

sorry got to address this O1 is often said to be the best starter steel and that is cause of the fact that you get it up to 1550 and quench inn jsut aobut any oil like quench and it will harden
to heat treat O1 like that is foolish but it will get you a workable knife blade
to truely get the most of the steel you need to soak the blank for at least 10 min at temp (without over heating ) let me know how many blade smiths and beginners have a computer controled kiln or salt pots
often the case is "i heat treat my O1 with a torch and by eye and it works jsut fine for me "

the kiln was my first big $$ buy cause no matter how ugly a knife if you nail the heat treat it can be a good knife (maybe ajust the blade grind to make it great)
no matter how nice the blade looks if the heat treat is bad the blade will be crap

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't know if this contributes anything to the conversation... here are a pair of Zowada razors made by the man himself. They are dead on 7/8 and the spines measure .225. I am math challenged so I will depend on your expertise to translate those numbers into the bevel angle.

I was thinking in reading your post that since Mr. Zowada had much to do, if not all, with the design of the razor that perhaps the bevel angle of the Hart razors was deliberately on the shallow side ? Measuring my pair I tend to wonder.

That was something I was curious about, whether the Zowada razors also had shallow honing angles since they were damascus and tape is more commonly used on damascus, plus Zowada is an advocate of using multiple layers of tape. I had asked about this earlier in either this thread or the one on the other forum with no responses. But from your numbers it appears your Zowadas have 17.26 degree honing angles, just about perfect. With damascus as beautiful as Zowada's a lower honing angle and the resulting requirement for tape is at least defensible. But the Hart is aimed at a different market with different requirements.

Edit: Thanks to Tim Zowada for noticing that I did the above calculation using a 6/8 size. The correct angle for those razors is 14.77 degrees.

Originally Posted by L R Harner

sorry got to address this O1 is often said to be the best starter steel and that is cause of the fact that you get it up to 1550 and quench inn jsut aobut any oil like quench and it will harden
to heat treat O1 like that is foolish but it will get you a workable knife blade
to truely get the most of the steel you need to soak the blank for at least 10 min at temp (without over heating ) let me know how many blade smiths and beginners have a computer controled kiln or salt pots
often the case is "i heat treat my O1 with a torch and by eye and it works jsut fine for me "

the kiln was my first big $$ buy cause no matter how ugly a knife if you nail the heat treat it can be a good knife (maybe ajust the blade grind to make it great)
no matter how nice the blade looks if the heat treat is bad the blade will be crap

Point taken.

Nonetheless, O1's low corrosion resistance renders it less than ideal for razors compared to many other carbon steels.

Nonetheless, with all the supposed quality heat treating that went into my Hart it is not in the top tier among all my razors - which does include some comparably priced razors for TI and Dovo. It is not even my best shaving O1 razor (even with a freshly honed edge) - that honor (such as it is) goes to a Robert Williams quarter hollow that AFAIK was heat treated in his basement. Some of the Hart's performance problems are doubtless caused by the low honing angle that I've discussed to death already, and I don't have the equipment nor inclination to figure out what role the heat treating plays in its moderate performance level.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think maybe, just maybe, somebody should have spent 2 weeks on 3 forums and found out who the 10 most experienced people were, and sent out 10 test razors before ever selling them...

Zowada claims "Before the razors were released to the market, we sent several out to be tested". Yet the only person that has mentioned his involvement in pre-production testing is Chris Moss. None of the others - if there were others - have said a thing. Maybe the others are still bound by nondisclosure and Chris was the only one that received a release to discuss it. Who knows. But Chris Moss did receive several razors from Hart, so he could have been the only tester -that would still be consistent with Zowada's statement. I'm sure Chris Moss did proper diligence in his testing. But if he was the only guy, or even if there were two or three, that is too small. I'm in software and I would consider that more of an alpha test, not even a beta test.

im ok with this
i would love to see how a high finish that was then blued would hold up VS wetness

i am going to keep playing with the different finishes on 52100 also might dable on a few didnt heat treat and cryos

Speaking of prices, I paid more for one of Butch Harner's razors than for a Hart. It is a full custom with spalted maple so maybe we are talking two different things but based on the performance of the 52100 steel and the quality of the workmanship if I had it to do all over again I would do it all over again.