I'm in mini-van hell. Just hope I outlive my Sienna so I can get a real car again. Dang car-seat laws.
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This is a great point. When something is designed tolerances should be considered. For example, if you design a bridge to hold 15 tons, and it has a variance of +/- 2 tons, sure it might hold 17 tons, but would you put up a sign saying it holds 15 tons? What if the tolerance were under? What if 15 tons of vehicle loaded a bridge that was spec'd at 15 tons but truly 14.2? Splash? Typically in design the reported value is lower than the spec'd value minus the tolerance (in the bridge example the loading is 15 +/- 2, so 13 - 17 tons, so the sign they put up should be say, 12.5 ton limit... this way they know no matter what, even if they are wrong, the bridge won't fail...)
I think my man hit the nail on the head here. Very well said IMO. I think it all comes down to personal valuation of a product that we would look at to buy. How many of us are put off of a product because someone we know has one and hasn't had great success with it? At the same time how many of us have bought a product based on the praise of one person who we personally know? Sorry, but I cannot believe that you don't shop or value products this way Jimmy. We all do to a degree. Whether we post about it or not doesn't really matter. Is Hart getting better? I'm sure they are trying to. Will we continue to see different opinions on the quality and value of their product? I find it impossible to believe that we won't.
Designer jeans command a high price because they are fashionable. You pay for the design. Carhardt and other working pants, you pay a little extra for the toughness (my Carhardt Carpenter's are still going strong after a year... working in auto shops, back rooms, on the farm, around the yard...).
So one could argue this commands a high price for what? Where are the snakewood scales? The gold wash? So no fashion.... so the high price has to come from the shave. Oh wait. I can get a great shave off of a $70 Dovo Best...
I figured out a solution.
I mentioned to my wife that there was a new American production razor out. She asked if I wanted one. I said yes and gave her Classic Shaving's number.
Problem solved.
I don't (personally) spend that kind of money on this razor. I still get a Hart Razor. "I had no choice. It was a gift!"
It's called "RAD by proxy".
I am not one of those who has to have the last word in an argument, calling this what it seems to have become. My use of designer jeans as an analogy was in response to another poster using a Lexus to illustrate something that is overpriced in his opinion.
A Rolex wrist watch may be the cat's whiskers but it ain't worth the price to me nor is a pair of designer jeans. Fashion is not my thing. If it is worth it to someone else who am I to criticize them ? So I don't criticize Rolex for charging what they do or you If you think it is worth it and buy it.
I don't own a Hart ..... yet..... therefore I cannot offer an opinion on whether it is worth the price of admission, a good design or a poor one. My only point was that there are a lot of posts by people critical of something that they haven't had hands on experience with. I am in the don't knock it until you've tried it mode here.
As far as the design of the Hart I appreciate mparker762 pointing out a perceived design flaw since he paid for the privilege and is a knowledgeable man on the finer points of straight razor design.
Tim Zowada responded with a lengthy and thoughtful post that IIRC said that they will take a look at it and correct it and if you've got one that isn't 'right' they will replace it with one that is.
Why people who haven't paid money for the thing are beating this dead horse is a mystery to me. I am sure that some of the fellows that need to have the last word will do so but I've said all I have to say on this topic.
:OT Jimmy,
I bought an F-150 new in '87 and drove it a trouble free 330,000 miles until it rusted out from under me. I gave it to my uncle to use on the farm - which he did until he died - a wonderful truck. I replaced it with a '99 Chevy which now has 160,000 on it, also trouble free (the Chevy is so much more driver friendly than the old Ford - power windows and power seat, doncha know). Frequent oil changes, etc. seem to give knees to the bees, hmmm?
OK, back to razors...
Thinking about the discussions re: Hart Razors, reminds me of an old joke where a man asks a woman if she would sleep with him for 10 million dollars. She says yes. Then he asks if she would for $50 and she says "Never, what kind of a woman do you think I am?" He says, "We've already settled that. Now, we're haggling about price."
I think we have settled that most here would like to try/have a Hart Razor and we are really haggling about price. it might be interesting to have a poll on the question "considering everything you have heard about the Hart Razors, how much would you be willing to spend on one?"
The thing is, some people are still trying to answer the 1st question. IOW, "Is the Hart razor worth having and what have been the experiences of people who have this razor?"
We have spent a lot of time on the first question and perhaps not enough on the second. I have already made my decision about the $, but am still interested in more input regarding the quality of the product. This would be best addressed by people who have experience with the razor, wouldn't it?
I would like to see the poll results as well. I also agree that most, if not all, would like to try the razor. We are discussing price:feature ratio more than anything else.
I am still standing by my statement in one of the other Hart razor threads...
Marketing 101 = TEST the product first...
Sending out 10 test razors first would have eliminated all the bad "press" before it ever happened....
JMHO
While I see your point in that it would be interesting to get a general consensus regarding perceived value, the fact is, the razor is $240. If you want one, then you have to pony up the dough. Add another 2 bucks and, after you shave, you can get a cup of coffee. The price is the price. End of story.
Starting a new business in the US is tough. US wages are high. US infrastructure (building space, machinery, etc.) is high. I would speculate that the cost of doing business in the US is what is driving such a high price for what is perceived, for the most part, as an entry level razor.
Sorry but this just doesn't compute. Dovo and TI aren't making their razors in China - France and Germany aren't known for their low labor and overhead rates either, and the currency exchange rate is *not* acting in their favor. Yet their razors that are most comparable to the Hart are considerably less expensive.
I would bet that Tim Zowada tested a few as well. The point that radaddict made about Hart being a start up company as opposed to an established razor manufacturer with over a century of operating behind them is also a good one. I still say it is a semi custom based on the mode of operation.
Whether the final product merits the price is up to the end user. It seems some think it is and others think it isn't. I'll reserve judgment until I have one in hand. It costs more than an entry level Dovo but it wasn't stamped out in cookie cutter fashion and run down an assembly line with various hands fashioning the finished product. The last TI I bought cost $370.00 USD here. Quite a razor BTW. :)
According to Tim:
So the blanks are stamped out by machine. Then they are rough ground. Then sent out. Then ground again. How is this all "semi-custom" "hand-made" by "one" person...?Quote:
These razors are “hand made”. No jugs or fixtures used during the grinding, or honing. The only automated part of the whole process is the profile cutting of the blanks. After that, the AT's rough grind the bevels, spines and tang tapers on a belt sander. The blades then go out for heat treating at a very high-tech heat treat facility. The AT's then do the finish grinding on their belt sanders
They ARE stamped out in cookie cutter fashion, then rough ground, then shipped out to a heat treat plant, where I can guarantee you there is an assembly line procedure, then shipped back for final grinding....
Hart is a startup. It ain't cheap to start up a new company. TI and DOVO are well established and their startup costs were long ago written off the books. They also have other products that bring money into their companies. That helps pay their overhead and distribute costs and profits over a wide base. An oversimplification, but... if you're trying to make a million dollars, you can sell one thing for one million or you can sell one million things for one dollar each. My point is that, provided you have demand for your product, it is easier to sell a lot of things with a little profit for each than a few things with a lot of profit for each. The key (and the art and the science) is to find the right balance.
I have no idea (nor do any of us here) what Hart's business plan looks like. Nor do we know how deep their pockets are. If they have shallow pockets, they may need to try to turn a profit more quickly than is wise. We don't know their rationale for pricing this razor where they have. I'm merely speculating that the costs involved with starting up a new company in the US is a contributing factor in this razors high price.
They are not even mining their own ore or smelting their own steel, they are not even drilling their own oil to manufacture the plastics for the scales. How dare they call them selves a small cottage industry.
Slackers and Fakers, a real artisan would naw the blanks to shape with abrasive coated teeth. Then and only then would I consider buying one.
This thread is silly, it has gone off of the rails.
This has turned into a debate not a discussion, I will bend you to my way of thinking with well reasoned rebuttals if you do not agree with my statements.
It is OK to have differing opinions.
Charlie
It does come back to how one gets venture capital here in the US. I recently went through the process of doing a business plan for a start up. Bankers want to see you break even in 5 years. IOW you have to project profits that will pay off your investments at that time. To do this you either have to project a certain number of sales or price a certain margin per item produced.
Start up costs for them are going to be much higher that the costs for an existing product that has been produced for 20+ years. Dovo and TI's "start up costs" are going to be much lower even for a new product because they already have much of an infrastructure in place. Even raw material costs are going to be lower for them as long standing large customers for their suppliers.
If you project a whole lot of sales in the first few years, you have to be able to support that conclusion to the banker. Bankers will quickly pick up on unrealistic sales projections. I suspect most bankers would have a hard time believing that Hart is going to create market. It is likely to be difficult to prove increasing demand for straight razors out there (unless someone has data I am unaware of). So they will have to project carving out part of the existing market.
My suspicion is they had a hard time projecting large numbers of sales. This means they had to build in a decent profit margin in order to get a reasonable ROI.
I conclude that, because of the constraints of venture capitol and start up costs, they didn't have a heck of a lot of choice about pricing.
I do wonder about their choice of retailer. I suspect that Zowada's relationship with Classic Shaving plays a role here.
They might have been better served by going with a company that sells a variety of less known brands as well as new old stock of older razor makers like Shaving Shop. Maybe some here could give me some insight to this but I think the people who buy Wackers might be more the type to by the new Hart Razors than the people who buy Dovo's or TI's.
By the same token, a retailer with a built in expert to do the reviews (SRD) for the new product might have been a good place to start their retail offerings.
It's funny you mention Chronik. I have this Regeldso, but I think it must have been made at the Chronik factory by the special Dwarves from the Misty Mountain, because after I shaved, I noticed that not only did i have a BBS, but my 9 month old David was completely smooth, both on his face and butt. And I haven't had to strop the razor in a week. Sound familiar..........?
http://yesteryearssouvenirs.ipower.com/BHI2.JPG
[and yeah, 9 month olds don't really have body hair, and sure I've been using other razors during the week, but it shimmers and stuff, and it seems to glow if I walk within 10 feet of my old Mach 3....]
I was in a business seminar in which this type of thing was covered, and they made some interesting points.
Discussions = Dual Beatings (dis-two; Cussion-beatings... think percussion instruments)
Dialogue = Dual Listening
Maybe we need a little bit more listening on both sides of this issue instead of more sanctimony... just a thought
But if you recall even in that situation there were multiple people doing that evaluation - el alamein, me, Lynn, and Chris. That's 4x the number that we know of for the Hart evaluation. Something as piddly as that Chronik eval - no financial risk involved - took roughly 3 months and involved I think 5 different Chronik razors.
You might want to re-read JimmyHAD's post on the whole not needing the last word thing. Just let it go. Do we really need to argue how many straight shavers it takes to screw in a light bulb?
We've now gotten over 5 views from people testing the HART - I think 4 of the 5 really liked it - Tim is taking the constructive criticism into his plans and offered to fix the one that didn't bring a smile. Mission accomplished, no?
Just as long as everyone understands I'm not selling my Regeldso at any price, no sireee. :medvl:
Gettem Charlie!! I love it. :jedi:
I'm thinking of bringing out a line of razors myself. I'll knock apart a bunch of ball bearings and weld the balls together - fold 'em and weld 'em, etc. a bunch of times and mix a little wootz in for good measure. Then I'll forge the blanks to near perfect shape so a minimal amount of grinding will be needed and bathe them in boiling lead to get just the perfect hardness - preferably a Rockwell 62.63 to 63.64 for honing that is a bit challenging, but when honemeisterly honed, the edge will do baby's butts for months and months.
The scales will be carved from hand sawn lumber taken from branches selected by a Sierra Club forester who pruned them from a 319 year old virgin white oak tree in Earl Weyerhauser's back yard.
The size? A perfect 13/16 with a .2439 thick spine. The finish: lustrous matte.
I have yet to assign a price to these units, but figure that for something as pedestrian as a razor they should go for between about 17 and 23 bucks, depending a lot on how much platinum I alloy into the rivet stock. I know it seems like a lot, but I need a sandwich at least every other day and the tent could use a couple of patches.
Think they'll fly?
Must have missed it.
Someone brought up the Chronik review to support his argument that Chris Moss is sufficiently luminous that his evaluation of the Hart was sufficient, and as I was involved in that review I figured I might be qualified to rebut that point. Sorry I inconvenienced you, but there aren't a whole lot of other guys on this forum that meets the requirement of direct experience with that review in order to have standing to comment.
And don't forget that Hart Steel is "an American Razor and Cutlery Company." It's entirely possible that their business plan revolves around the cutlery part and "oh, by the way, we can go to market very quickly with a straight razor" as sauce for the goose.
Disclaimer: Once again I am merely speculating.
You're not planning on using that cheesy superglue finish on the scales are you? Cause that's just cheesy. At that price point a razor's scales should have hand-rubbed lacquer at least an eighth inch thick. Rubbed by virgins with their bare thighs, preferably. :rofl2:
Just make sure the virgins who do the work with their bare thighs, stamp their initials on the tang. If there's a problem with the thigh rubbing on my scales, I want to know who the hell did it, and complain personally. :rant: Otherwise I'll take my dollars elsewhere. :)
I also mentioned, when I talked to my wife, that my birthday was coming up and that she says I am notoriously hard to buy for?
I also printed up classic shaving's page on the Hart Razor and left it out for her with Classic Shaving's phone number on it? I also printed up the page with the Zowada 6/8 damascus with Ebony scales.
It's always good to give them a choice.