I'm in the market for a razor and I was considering a Hart. After reading the post from Tim Zowada about the bevels I'm not so sure. I sent Hart an email asking about it this morning but I haven't heard back.
Thanks,
Adrian.
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I'm in the market for a razor and I was considering a Hart. After reading the post from Tim Zowada about the bevels I'm not so sure. I sent Hart an email asking about it this morning but I haven't heard back.
Thanks,
Adrian.
Well from the looks of things, I probably want to forget about this razor. I've read mparker762's threads here and he seems to be quite knowledgeable. He isn't loving the Harts to much.
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That price might be justified for a production Zowada razor, except that TZ seems to be disavowing these razors saying that although he is project manager and trained the guys that are making the razors he doesn't consider them to be Zowada razors. And since they don't have his name on them anywhere it's fair that we shouldn't impute any of his reputation to these new razors. So what that leaves us with are some half-finished crudely-ground razors made with a pretty pedestrian steel, at a higher price point than the full hollow mirror polished razors from TI and Dovo.
While one might be a fan of quarter hollows (I'm not) or O1 steel (love the hardness but it's very rust-prone even for carbon steel) or matte finishes (harder to get clean, encourages rust) the fact remains that these are all attributes that minimise the skill level needed, and keep the cost low. And yet despite being less-well made than their competition from France(!?!) these razors are nearly as expensive as a full custom from Robert Williams, Bill Ellis, or Robert Chandler.
You can start here with the classifieds or if you're looking new try Straight Razor Design.
Straight Razors - Straight Razor Place Classifieds
If you read all the posts here you will get an idea about them. if your the adventurous type and are willing to put up with issues with new production razors then go ahead otherwise I would wait until all the issues have been ironed out. No different than with buying a new car model the first year it comes out. Usually not an adviseable thing to do.
$175-250. This would be my second razor (I currently own a Prima Klang) and I have been considering just buying another Prima but it's been suggested that given my coarse beard a different razor might be better.Quote:
What is your price range? What are you looking for?
Originally, I just wanted a great shave so I was going to just buy a razor, a strop, some soap, a mug and some paste for the touch up. This is not how it worked out... I'm up to a mug, a "redneck" scuttle, two hones, two balsa wood hones, pasteS.... :)
I'm also currently resisting the urge to go ahead and pick up a Naniwa 1k and 5k and hitting ebay. When I started this (not all that long ago) I swore I wasn't going to go there.
"Just buy a razor and get a great shave" that was the mantra. Some mantra. :rolleyes:
MP762 has just really put a big nail in the Hart coffin for me here. This makes complete sense to me and I probably could have saved a couple hours of my life if this had come to me earlier. :gaah:Quote:
Everyone on this board thinks their own beard is heavy, but simple logic would indicate that most of them are wrong. Furthermore, heavy bearded guys really need sharp razors more than heavy razors which is why barbers abandoned their W&Bs barber's use choppers for dubl ducks and C-Mon's en masse. A heavy stiff razor helps disguise any flaws in the edge and shaving technique. And they're very popular among guys who think their beard is heavy (which is pretty much everybody). But there are a lot of posts in the archives from guys who discovered after a few years of experience that their "tough" beard didn't need a heavy razor after all, it needed a sharp blade and decent technique.
you might want to wait untill they establish consistent quality output, also they are apparently developing their own steel etc, and expanding the line.
I don't know if you want to get a Heart razor, or just a high quality respectable brand, but there are such options as TI, Wacker, Bocker, also Revizor(this one has gotten good reviews from members)
With a few modifications the Hart will be a very good razor.
Edit: And, umm, *sounding* authoritative is a lot easier than *being* authoritative...
Just read the shave reviews over at B&B...
Off to SRD to shop for another Dovo. :)
not to sound like a deal breaker, but imo Dovo is not the best thing one can buy. I have heard good things about Bismark but that's about the only razor made by dovo that I have heard anyone praise.
It's not so much of a deal breaker... It just other than custom razors, I rarely hear anything good said (consistantly) about almost any razor. One of the easiest ways I've seen to pick a fight here is to say razor X is better than razor Y. After that people come out of the woodwork to defend or attack (and usually both). It seems the only thing I have to go on are impressions of what I think might be a good shave for me. I sift through the forums looking for clear manufacturing flaws (the Harts, the older TIs--though I've heard that new TIs are better but still have issues--still true?--etc...) So for me the question is do I want something full hollow (or extra full) or something with more steel in it. I am now of a mind that MP762 is correct and that it's better to try to find something that is sharp (and stays sharp) and to make sure my technique is good.
They start on about page 12... MP762's heartbreaking review starts on page 13 (sorry about the strop man).
The Prima Klang is what I learned how to shave with. That is my default purchase if I don't come up with anything better. I know it's a excellent blade and it gives me a fantastic shave (when I don't screw up the edge).Quote:
The Dovo Special is also an excellent razor, and the Bergischer Lowe and Prima Klang are outstanding.
I am working in charlotte, BTW
Here are outstanding choices. I just choose (should be here today) a 7/8 Friodur based on the same way you are researching. There is a thread somewhere that says "name your closest shaver" and another that says "name your top three shavers". Both of those have the Friodur in there quite a bit.
Another outstanding choice I am getting ready to buy (maybe today) is a filarmonica doble temple I have not heard anyone say anything bad about this razor.
Sounds to me like you are wanting one of those mystical razors that just blows everyone away. These are 2 that I have found that are not custom that everyone seems to love. Puma/Double duck/Le croix/are some others with stellar reviews. I hope this helps you. I think you look into things the same way I do by what you are saying.
I have a LeGrelot 1/4 hollow and it has outstanding quality fit anf finish etc.
I ordered the historic Spartacus 1/2 hollow , that by what others have said it a great shaver too. As far as I have herd currently Dovo has QC issues , while TI are improving in that area. My only Dovo was not particularly well fitted, I know that my case is in general an exception not a rule for Dovo razors.
I've got a dozen or so TIs ... most are a couple of years old and some of recent mfg. A couple have uneven scales and one came with a double bevel on one side and not the other. PITA to correct. All are good or better shavers.
I don't know how the razor mfgs pay their workers but I worked in a factory briefly here in the USA in the late '60s and we worked piece work. IOW, not by the hour but by the amount of product you finished on a shift.
If you didn't produce a minimum amount you would be replaced with someone more ambitious and the more you produced the more $ you made. So I'm not sure how the workers at TI or Dovo are recompensed but IME workers at any factory have to 'get down' if they want to keep their job. That may account for the occasional flaw in the finished product.
BTW, I'm not making excuses for the perceived lack of quality control, just my view of why it may happen. :hmmm:
I have two suggestions. This is taking into account that you have a (relatively) large budget.
1) If you like the Prima Klang, stick with similar blades.
2) Since you only have one razor, you like it. But is it the best? If I were you (and this is what I did)- buy a lot of cheaper blades that are very different to find out what you like. I own everything from a near-wedge to a singing hollow, and sizes in 1/16th increments from 4/8's to 8/8's, minus 7/8 and 9/16 (the 9/16s I sold because I wasn't impressed with and I just haven't found a cheap 7/8s). I developed tastes and now I can spend more money on a razor I am (probably) going to like, versus spending money on something I might like. Once again, if you like the Prima, buy another, but you might end up liking something else better.
so really how many reviews have been done?
is all this bad press over 2 reviews, thats a fairly small test group
just playing the other side :)
I'm for playing the other side too, Butch. I'm with ya on that.
I can't resist a couple of these: :rofl2::rofl2:
I don't know if you're counting full fledged official reviews or just positive comments from people who own one and have shaved with them, but I thought there were now 3-4 Hart razor owners in favor of the Hart razor and one against?
Here's a quick topically related story, I just have to share my opinion and get it off my chest:
Some of you that have been around a long time will recall when only a few people had any Shapton pros or glass stones. I bought all the glass stones except for the 30k AND I bought the GDLP, a very pricey lapping plate to be sure. My GDLP, I believe, was defective and I ended up going public with that on SRP and even though I wanted to exchange it for a different one, that wasn't an option and I received a refund from Harrelson. I was very disappointed that I spent that much money on a lapping plate that degraded in performance quite rapidly. Thankfully, others have had positive experiences with the GDLP, and I'm happy that's the case. At the time, I had to restrain myself from verbally trashing the GDLP. Instead I believe I was very careful to make it clear that I had a problem with my GDLP and I don't believe I ever said anything to the effect of discouraging others to buy one. Thankfully, one defective and undesirable GDLP was an anomoly and I would have been wrong to make statements to the contrary.
I'm encouraged by a new company in the U.S. having the capability to offer production razors to me and others that have interest in straight razors. One type of razor in one style ground in one specific way does not in my mind permanently define a company. This is their first product. I think they're willing to listen to criticism and make the kind of changes that will appeal to their market. Being an individual in their "market", I have a feeling of support and encouragement rather than a feeling of looking for a big rock that fits nicely in my hand after a new niche market company debuts their very first product.
I'm just sayin.
I will say I have not bought a Hart razor yet. Hypocrite? Literally all disposable income I have now (which is almost none or comes in at a trickle) I'm saving up for a Sherline 4000 or 4400 lathe, then a Sherline mill. If someone knows of a Sherline lathe at AT A DECENT PRICE :rant: I'll be back into buying some more razors. If my razor slush fund was replenished like it has sometimes been, I'd be buying one of the Hart razors for certain.
Chris L
I have no Hart razor, so I can't speak neither in favor or against them. But it amazes me to see how a new American made product, that at least deserves a fair chance, is being discredited by people that haven't used it and show great talent for presenting very dubious arguments against the Hart razor as being trued facts.
Tim Zowada makes custom knives. I find it quite normal that he chooses not to mix that with this new brand that makes confection razors under his supervision. To present that as proof for a lack of quality is simply unfair.
Tim Zowada knows how to make a fine razor, and based on his post here on SRP about the production process, he shared all of that knowledge for the benefit of the Hart razor. Of course the Hart razor will have to do without the fancy cosmetics of real Zowada, that adds art to the craft, but I don't expect any performance difference that can be objectively assessed.
The speculations about the bevel angle is nonsense. If the manufacturer states that the razor needs to be honed with tape, than that's that. Anyone who can hone without tape can also hone with tape. One could just as easily argue that it's a streak of genius to produce a razor with a slightly lower angle. It allows the owner to fully customize the edge to his own liking, by adding 0, 1 or 2 layers of tape. I might even be tempted to buy a Hart for that reason alone.
I was expecting the straight shaving community to embrace this fine initiative. I surprises me that it is met with so much misgiving.
Or am I missing something here?
Bart.
Sorry, but I think so. I know :deadhorse:
Seriously... saying a product is priced high for the features is not negativity about the company, the product, or the initiative shown. Saying that you shouldn't have to tape a spine to hone it anything but nonsense. If someone didn't know this information, they may never get a proper edge on it. That would be much more damaging to the long term prospects of the initiative than having these discussions.
I fail to understand why we should support an American product that we may feel is overpriced (based on features). I don't buy American cars that don't represent a good value. So, why should I buy a razor that doesn't IMO? I don't like the idea of preventing the free flow of products into the US either because I don't like the idea of paying a higher price because something was made/grown in the US. Notice that no one is saying that it isn't good.
I know where you guys are coming from when you say that if you don't own one you can't say anything about the value of it, but that's illogical. If they charged $10,000 for it, would you still make the argument? Obviously, that's an absurd example, but it illustrates the point. You can make a value judgment on something you don't own. You do it all of the time when making purchases in every facet of life. Does this make sense? If not, there's no reason for either side to continue to discuss this. It's silly for you guys to say the same thing repeatedly only to have us retort the same tired stuff that we've already said repeatedly.
The point is, when you start talking that kind of money, why not just get a razor that's got a lot of bling to it? If you want to support it, great. Get after it. However, at the end of the day, you've got a Camry for the price of a Lexus GS 350. It's nice, it's well made, it's plain and functional... It's just overpriced. I'm done making that point.
Most of the reviews of this razor in the review section seem to be based on a whopping one shave.
Don't know if Riooso would count as against, but his razor also had bevel problems, and his also edge failed prematurely. For that matter i'm not sure I count as against, even with the problems I've had. I think that once the Hart guys fix their problems that it will be a good $170 razor. It's a shame that they're charging $240 for it, but that's not a reflection on the razor itself and possibly not even on Hart.
Yes. Why is it that only those who own a Hart can diss it but anyone in the peanut gallery can praise it? I can see if someone was complaining about the shave quality, but why must one own a Hart to complain about the price, or aesthetics or other design attributes like the finish or grind or smile?
There have been two razors whose edges failed prematurely - mine and riooso's. Since both of our razors have relatively narrow honing angles it seemed reasonable to suspect that this might be a contributing factor. We have recently learned that riooso's razor has close to the design angle, while mine is quite a bit less.
The manufacturer does *not* state that it needs to be honed with tape. They state that they hone it with tape but that it is purely optional.
But even if their website says "Must be honed with tape for best results" or some such, we are still free to criticise this requirement. There are valid reasons for not using tape. One need not even own a Hart to dislike such a requirement, nor to voice this dislike.
You mean besides the price, paucity of features, and something like 25-30% of the known population of Hart's having bevel issues and difficulty holding an edge? Other than that, no I don't think you're missing anything.
I want Hart to succeed. Let there be no mistake about that. I think the will be a valuable contributor in the resurgence of the rich american razor-making tradition.
However, I would prefer that Hart succeed on its merits than on some sort of patriotic fever or sympathy over their startup status or any of the other short-lived and frankly irrelevant issues that have been brought up in these threads. I am appalled that elder members of this forum would regard as inconsequential the fact that roughly 25% of the Hart razors on this forum have problems holding an edge. This is a vanishingly rare problem with Dovo or TI. They may have iffy gold wash, but they do not have a problem performing the one critical task required of them. And hopefully the 2nd gen Hart's will be fully and reliably up to this task.
Your entitled to your opinion. There are a lot of items that are not worth it to me that are worth it to someone else.
I would never pay a hundred dollars for a pair of jeans with a designer label but I don't go on forums saying that they are no good or not worth the money when # 1 I haven't bought them and had to pay the price and # 2 I've never hands on tried them.
These designer jeans are apparently worth the money to someone as people keep buying them. The same with the Hart razor. Of those who have bought them it seems that more are satisfied with their purchase than not.
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Hello Adrian,
Mr. Zowada conceded that the 13 degrees that mparker762's razor had was too acute. The reason his razor was 13 degrees, was the AT made the razor slightly wider than the 6/8's, or 0.750", wide specification. The standard specification for these razors is 14.2 degrees which is fine for all users. The reason we will be increasing the angle in the future is to allow for these manufacturing variations without the honing angle becoming too acute.
I would be happy to hand pick a razor for you that has the standard width, and 14.2 degree honing bevel. I am sure you will find it satisfactory. If you would like to wait for the next model, it should be available sometime this winter.
Kind regards,
Customer Service Team
ClassicShaving.com
Here's the response I got back from an email sent off the link from the Hart site. It will be interesting to see what they come out with in the winter.
It seems they're a bit touchy about the bad press floating around, they took the opportunity to point out a mistake I made. I said "14 degrees was too low". Live and learn.
I went ahead and ordered another Prima Klang. I really like the shave.
I like the idea of hitting ebay to pick up some cheap razors to see if there is something I like better but it'll have to wait until after I finish the dissertation.
Adrian.
If 14 degrees doesn't allow them enough margin for their manufacturing tolerances, then 14 degrees is too low. Secondly, one of the razors whose edge failed prematurely had a 14.2 degree angle.