Real Damascus Steel ?

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10-07-2009, 05:33 AM
melyus

Real Damascus Steel ?

Hi Dear Friends,

im new on straight razors and Just i want to know that i find some Damascus straight on ebay so if these are real damascus steel why their price are lower then i guess.?
do you have any info about them here i want to put two links for check.
(if im wrong to put here link please delete my post i apologise for that)

Barber Straight Edge Razor - Damascus Blade Bone Handle - eBay (item 220488591922 end time Oct-08-09 19:44:04 PDT)

Damast messer taschenmesser jagdmesser, RAZOR 122 bei eBay.de: Outdoor (endet 08.10.09 20:31:52 MESZ)

Thanks for your help.
Regards.
10-07-2009, 05:59 AM
holli4pirating

My understanding is that these new, inexpensive Damascus blades are Pakistani in orgin and unsuitable for shaving. A member purchased one and tried to hone it to a shaving edge, but was unable to do so. I cannot say that this will be the case for all the inexpensive Damascus razors that pop up, but I personally would not risk it. If it looks to good to be true, it probably is.
10-07-2009, 07:07 AM
chugokujin

On the first razor, I tried googling "damascus steel and jacobs usa" and got nothing. Could just be the stamp of the guy bringing them in to add to the sell factor.

Good pattern welded steel is very labor intensive and quite a bit of knowledge goes into knowing which steels will work well together to be suited for a knife or razor. Then there is the forging aspect of welding the steels properly so it becomes homogenous without inclusions. After that there is the process of heat treating. You could also ruin good blade steel with poor heat treating.

Holli is prob right in that they are probably from pakistan. Chances are even if the steel is good, the heat treat is questionable. I would be suprised if they did hold a decent edge.

There are a lot of online resources for the making of damascus. Youtube has got loads of videos.
10-07-2009, 12:54 PM
ChayesFSS

I posted the information up in the auction area, they're all paki and being sold via 2 or more accounts out of FL.
10-07-2009, 05:01 PM
fccexpert

Well, for one thing they are not real damascus steel. The art of making this steel was lost a long time ago.
10-07-2009, 09:27 PM
chugokujin

Yes, the correct term would be "pattern welded or forge folded steel." Many ABS Mastersmiths still call it Damascus for general reference.
10-07-2009, 11:17 PM
thebigspendur

To my knowledge there are only two razors out there that are truly folded steel. One is the TI Damascus and the other as I recall was a limited production of a razor at SRD.
10-08-2009, 12:52 AM
holli4pirating

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

To my knowledge there are only two razors out there that are truly folded steel. One is the TI Damascus and the other as I recall was a limited production of a razor at SRD.

Here I'll be showing my ignorance, but what about the custom blades made from the known razorsmiths? Are those something else? (I'd thought they were folded steel as well)
10-08-2009, 01:23 AM
MinniesMate

Maestro Levi calls his blades Damascus steel. I guess the more correct might be Damascus processed steel or Damascus like steel. If you want to get technical about it. But I think everyone on this forum knows what is meant in using the term.
10-08-2009, 01:45 AM
sparq

Some good links to articles about Damascene steel (the real one, not the pattern welded look-alike) are on this page: Damascene Technique in Metal Working
10-08-2009, 03:20 AM
Mike Blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparq

Some good links to articles about Damascene steel (the real one, not the pattern welded look-alike) are on this page: Damascene Technique in Metal Working

It's a fair article with some errors, especially temperatures and the general understanding of how to make the base material steel. For the most part, it's not bad.

I think that a couple fellows would take exception to the idea that wootz cannot be manufactured any longer.

See here: The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades

A few of you lucky souls have razor blades made from Alfred's wootz.

Modern damascus is better referred to as pattern welded steel, but damascus, as a name, is common enough even though technically not the most correct term. Wootz, to me, is wootz, nothing else describes it better. But if someone says fulad or bulat, I'll keep up with them and won't blink.

Increasing the layer count of that material either requires cutting and restacking or bending and folding the billet followed by another welding cycle. Japanese techniques are similar but they are primarily cleaning the dross from a bloomed material and not attempting to increase any layer count.
10-08-2009, 02:12 PM
melyus

Thanks to all my friend ..
these informations are very useful for me.

Regards.
10-08-2009, 10:22 PM
thebigspendur

I don't know about all the custom makers but Livi uses ingots of damasteel to make his razors.
10-09-2009, 12:29 AM
AirColorado

I was curious after the last Damascus thread and the unsuccessful attempt to hone one up by a Keen - so I wrote to one of the US ebay sellers and asked if they'd guarantee that if I couldn't hone one up to shaving specs if he'd refund the cost. The reply was a resounding no. After that and after following a few Damascus threads, my opinion is that if it's not a Livi or some other maker that we're familiar with here, you take on an unacceptable risk of getting a blade you'll never be able to shave with. You'll get something pretty for a shelf but never be able to put it in into your rotation.
10-09-2009, 09:29 AM
Bruno

To be honest, I would also not refund a blade if the client couldn't hone it.
That's like asking if you can get a refund for a ferrari if you can't properly drive it (and have already done some questionable things with the transmission).

That is not to say that they eby store would sell you something useful. But even if they did, you bought it you keep it. The only thing that would work is if you can both agree on an impartial referee to judge the blade.
11-22-2009, 07:22 AM
IanS

I saw this razor on ebay, bid $60 on it for a larf (figuring a damascus steel razor, even a cheap one would go for several hundred). Lost (went for $100ish). And promptly got a second chance offer to sell it to me for $60... so my guess is these are mass produced for well under $50.

It's a shame, they are nice looking razors, but I don't want a razor that is only pretty. I want one that is pretty and an excellent shaver. I guess I'm waiting until I'm rich and can drop close to $1000 on a custom one.
11-22-2009, 09:09 AM
BAMARACING8

does not matter how much money you have to spend....you will never get a REAL damascus steel razor as the art of this died with the crusades........so i cant bring myself to pay 1000+ for a pattern welded blade no matter how good it looks....if you have to have a damascus steel blade save up for a very long time and try and purchase a sword that was made back then OF REAL DAMASCUS STEEL
11-22-2009, 10:13 AM
ignatz

My opinion of these two offerings is as follows:

If the photos are to be believed, the stuff is definitely pattern welded steel. Please note that popular term for pattern welded steel has been Damascus pattern welded steel (not to be confused with actual Damascus steel (aka wootz steel) which was originally created in Hydribad, India but shipped via Damascus (hence the name).

Now just being able to make pattern welded steel is not the big trick. There are three big "ifs" involved.

The first "if" is whether or not the steel used in the pattern welding is, of itself, of good quality.

The second big "if" is whether or not the pattern welding is properly done. If not, then although the steel is properly twisted and hammered, it will separate and split along the weld lines. Although such work might serve well enough for a knife, it is absolute crap for something like a straight razor which demands a smooth and enblemished edge.

The third big "if" is with regard to the final hardening and quenching after the pattern welding has been done.

Oh, by the way, that title on the blade "Damascus Steel - Jacobs USA" Looks like it has been added in using a photo retouching program like the Photoshop.

So, to sum up. Damascus pattern welding? Yup. Any good for shaving? Probably not worth a curse.
11-22-2009, 07:14 PM
Thechef

A lot of Damascus steels of various types are acid etched to produce the pattern and like the others say its an almost lost art.

I have seen and used kitchen knives as a professional Chef
those were the real deal with a real price tag as well!
11-22-2009, 07:40 PM
Buddel

In the german forums we discussed this razors. One member bought one and some of the best honemeisters tried to get it shave-ready. No chance. The steel or the heat treating is bull shit. Nobody knows it, even the sellers not.
11-22-2009, 07:58 PM
freeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by fccexpert

Well, for one thing they are not real damascus steel. The art of making this steel was lost a long time ago.

Are you entirely sure that statement is accurate? Pattern-welding crucible steel isn't a lost process...
11-22-2009, 08:14 PM
sparq

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeman

Are you entirely sure that statement is accurate? Pattern-welding crucible steel isn't a lost process...

Pattern-welding crucible steel is not the real Damascus steel either....
11-22-2009, 08:22 PM
JonnyO

What you need to know.

Is this "real" "damascus" steel?

As it has been said, No! Wootz Damascus has not been produced in over 200 years. It is a crucible steel with white carbides running through the steel that make the patterns. However, there has been much research on the subject and chemical analysis to break down what the exact alloy components are.

Most likely this is a patterned welded Damascus which is two steel alloys that are forge welded together to form the patterns. Two different alloys are used with one always having a high nickel content to give the bright lines in the pattern. After heat treating the steel is given an acidic bath in a process referred to as etching.
11-22-2009, 09:33 PM
Scipio

Exactly what I thought. All damascus style razors are purely aesthetic. It looks great, and I have never shaved with one; however I have read that high carbon steel is better for shaving. Opinion not fact as Ive never shave tested 2 like for like razors in both steels.

San Mai damascus has a SG1 core and is meant to be different again....
11-22-2009, 10:57 PM
IsaacRN

I myself have a true wootz damascus steel razor. Not damascene or pattern wielded. It is quite nice :) Some of Joe Chandlers best work.
11-26-2009, 01:38 PM
JonnyO

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsaacRN

I myself have a true wootz damascus steel razor. Not damascene or pattern wielded. It is quite nice :) Some of Joe Chandlers best work.

I saw those on SRD. How are they? Does he plan on making any others?
11-26-2009, 02:17 PM
JimmyHAD

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyO

I saw those on SRD. How are they? Does he plan on making any others?

I asked Don about that and at the time he said,"maybe." :)