Can this razor be saved?

What should be done to this razor (Wade & Butcher) to make it usable for shaving? Thanks

doesn't look like it needs to be 'saved' maybe just send it out to get honed up

agree 100%

+1 From me looks like a beauty!
Or you could send it to me for safe disposal....(cough cough ahem)

That looks nice, I've got one very similar to that, and absolutely love it.

Sweet looking blade, I also see no need to save it, it's just fine!

That's in pretty good shape. A little bit of Maas + a fresh honing puts you in business.

Enjoy!

Ray

Well, it's got a lot of hone wear and look at the width of the bevel on the edge. With a bevel angle that low, you may have an edge that breaks down quickly. However, throw a few layers of tape on the spine to increase the angle and hone 'er up!

When I first looked at this I thought it was a wedge based on what looks like hone wear. If it is in fact a wedge, that wear is pretty normal for something that old. If it is not then ya, that is a lot of wear.

Ray

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Originally Posted by radaddict

Well, it's got a lot of hone wear and look at the width of the bevel on the edge. With a bevel angle that low, you may have an edge that breaks down quickly. However, throw a few layers of tape on the spine to increase the angle and hone 'er up!

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Very light sanding and polishing up should do it. If you don't like the scales, they could be replaced, but if you are looking for a good daily use razor it would just need honing. But, I've never restored a razor so I don't know about the sanding...use a very fine grit sand paper if you do decide to go for a shiny razor.

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Originally Posted by rayman

When I first looked at this I thought it was a wedge based on what looks like hone wear. If it is in fact a wedge, that wear is pretty normal for something that old. If it is not then ya, that is a lot of wear.

Ray

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It says hollow ground on the razor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a razor can't be a wedge and a hollow ground at the same time, right?

I hate it when some things are so darn obvious...:)

Ray

At first glance I think your gonna need a regrind.

If you look at the shoulder and the notch you can see that the angles do not match up. IE too much wear. You may need a regrind. In lieu of that 2 or 3 layers of tape but that may make the edge too thin and may chip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by radaddict

Well, it's got a lot of hone wear and look at the width of the bevel on the edge. With a bevel angle that low, you may have an edge that breaks down quickly. However, throw a few layers of tape on the spine to increase the angle and hone 'er up!

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Bogus! If you put tape on the spine, (a recent trend the psycology of I have yet to understand), it will just thicken up the bevel on an already honed out razor. The only way to save that razor would be to sent it to Ross Cutlery in Los Angeles to be reground or to find someone with the equipment to do it for you. That razor is honed out. Sorry for being blunt but why would I blow smoke?

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Originally Posted by John Crowley

Bogus! If you put tape on the spine, (a recent trend the psycology of I have yet to understand), it will just thicken up the bevel on an already honed out razor. The only way to save that razor would be to sent it to Ross Cutlery in Los Angeles to be reground or to find someone with the equipment to do it for you. That razor is honed out. Sorry for being blunt but why would I blow smoke?

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Well, I agree that a regrind is a more elegant solution. I can see why taping would result in a thicker bevel, but it would also result in a narrower bevel and make it easier to hone to a keen edge. However, it depends on how thick the bevel is currently. If the razor was mine (I do own a couple that are hone out), I would tape it and see how it shaves. If it didn't deliver a comfortable shave, I'd probably trash it (or use it as a bread knife).

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Originally Posted by radaddict

Well, I agree that a regrind is a more elegant solution, but please explain how taping the spine will result in a thicker bevel?

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Yes Please do, as I understand it, tape=thicker spine, thicker spine=narrow bevel.

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Originally Posted by radaddict

Well, I agree that a regrind is a more elegant solution, but please explain how taping the spine will result in a thicker bevel?

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Yes Please do, as I understand it, tape=thicker spine, thicker spine=narrow bevel.

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Well, you quoted my post before I modified it. lol. I think my revised post explains it a bit better.

"I can see why taping would result in a thicker bevel, but it would also result in a narrower bevel"

Nope still confused bud...lol

Let me see if I can explain all this:

The more hone wear, the thinner the spine and the wider the bevel. So, when honing, you're honing more steel and, as the spine gets thinner, the edge moves closer to the spine. The closer the edge moves to the spine, the thicker the steel and the more difficult it is get a keen edge. Taping the spine will make it easier to get a keen edge, but because the edge or bevel is thick (and I'm talking steel thickness, not bevel width), it doesn't shave well. Sharp thin steel will cut more effectively than equally sharp thick steel.

Let's talk about bevel angles. Thin steel will be honed to a narrow bevel (low bevel angle) and a certain sharpness. Thick steel can be honed to the same sharpness, but the bevel angle will be wide (as viewed from the side). Consider that the average 6/8 razor may have a bevel angle of 18 degrees and delivers a comfortable shave. Now, keep the same sharpness and 6/8 blade width, but widen the bevel angle to 30 degrees (making the spine thicker). Shaving with that razor won't be easy. You'll have to compensate for the increased bevel angle by increasing the blade to skin angle. We all know the discomfort that comes with raising the spine too far beyond the 30 degree optimum angle.

To explain (or muddy the waters) further: The razor geometry is complex. You have the blade width, spine thickness and bevel angle all working together. You may shave with the razor at a 30 degree angle to your face, but the angle to your face at the bevel is much lower (sigh... I wish I had some diagrams). So, if you have a wide bevel angle you will need to raise the blade angle much higher to achieve the same bevel to face angle that you got with the razor with a low bevel angle. (good god... the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true. - sorry, obscure reference to an old Danny Kaye movie :D)

I fear that this is still clear as mud, but I hope that helps.

I see, but surely if the bevel angle is correct a good shave should result? I totaly understand what your saying, but a wedge shaves divinely if honed right

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

I see, but surely if the bevel angle is correct a good shave should result? I totaly understand what your saying, but a wedge shaves divinely if honed right

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I've added a bit more to my explanation that may (or may not) make this clearer. You need to take the geometry of the entire razor into account.

(good god... the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true. )

Bwhahahahaha and whats worse is our posts are kinda overlapping
dont know about you but my head is all fuzzy now?
what say we just vote that it needs a re-grind? hahahaha

Either that or we get into using 3m packing tape to produce a shimmed and tapered packer for the spine....lol

Sod it, the dude can just use it to butter his toast and be done with it... lol

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Sod it, the dude can just use it to butter his toast and be done with it... lol

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I pick that one. Might get some funny looks though.

Barber's Notch = rest on jar of jam

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Originally Posted by radaddict

good god... the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true.

I fear that this is still clear as mud, but I hope that helps.

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No! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

So everyone can share in the lunacy:
YouTube - The Court Jester - The Pellet With The Poison

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Originally Posted by tat2Ralfy

Yes Please do, as I understand it, tape=thicker spine, thicker spine=narrow bevel.

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Pure unadulterated horse hocky!

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Originally Posted by radaddict

Let me see if I can explain all this:

The more hone wear, the thinner the spine and the wider the bevel. So, when honing, you're honing more steel and, as the spine gets thinner, the edge moves closer to the spine. The closer the edge moves to the spine, the thicker the steel and the more difficult it is get a keen edge. Taping the spine will make it easier to get a keen edge, but because the edge or bevel is thick (and I'm talking steel thickness, not bevel width), it doesn't shave well. Sharp thin steel will cut more effectively than equally sharp thick steel.

Let's talk about bevel angles. Thin steel will be honed to a narrow bevel (low bevel angle) and a certain sharpness. Thick steel can be honed to the same sharpness, but the bevel angle will be wide (as viewed from the side). Consider that the average 6/8 razor may have a bevel angle of 18 degrees and delivers a comfortable shave. Now, keep the same sharpness and 6/8 blade width, but widen the bevel angle to 30 degrees (making the spine thicker). Shaving with that razor won't be easy. You'll have to compensate for the increased bevel angle by increasing the blade to skin angle. We all know the discomfort that comes with raising the spine too far beyond the 30 degree optimum angle.

To explain (or muddy the waters) further: The razor geometry is complex. You have the blade width, spine thickness and bevel angle all working together. You may shave with the razor at a 30 degree angle to your face, but the angle to your face at the bevel is much lower (sigh... I wish I had some diagrams). So, if you have a wide bevel angle you will need to raise the blade angle much higher to achieve the same bevel to face angle that you got with the razor with a low bevel angle. (good god... the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true. - sorry, obscure reference to an old Danny Kaye movie :D)

I fear that this is still clear as mud, but I hope that helps.

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OK, let's cut to the chase. If your razor is so over honed/honed out that the edge is thickening up it needs to be reground. Even better go get a new one. If that same razor is so overhoned that the edge has thickened up from removing so much metal that your formerly 6/8 is now a 5/8, putting tape on the spine making it thicker will only do the same for the edge - make it thicker. It's basic geometry.

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Originally Posted by John Crowley

Pure unadulterated horse hocky!

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What tat2ralfy says makes perfect sense to me John. Maybe if you tried to explain yourself in a different way and educate us instead of dismissing the idea in such a manner as in the quote above we might get a better idea of what you mean.

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Originally Posted by John Crowley

Pure unadulterated horse hocky!

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I am trying to understand why taping wouldn't make the bevel thinner... here are some cheesy drawings showing the vectors of a hone to the edge if the spine of a razor were widened (as in by adding tape). The pictures are exaggerations, but I think it shows the point.

normal spine= wider bevel
Attachment 32999
wider spine= thinner bevel
Attachment 32998

I think part of the problem is you guys are looking at the bevel as being the honed shiny area above the cutting edge of the razor and not thinking of the bevel as an angle. A bevel on a knife is a totally different animal from a bevel on a razor but if you thicken the spine eventually you will have a pocket knife. (acute = sharp and obtuse = dull)

Webster definition of a bevel when used as a noun:
the angle that one surface or line makes with another when they are not at right angles b : the slant of such a surface or line

Obtuse when used as an adjective: not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.

Acute when used as an adjective: sharp at the end; ending in a point.

If you tape the spine sure it will not polish as much of the blade going down to the cutting edge but it makes the bevel angle less acute, (more obtuse), and trends towards making a duller cutting edge.

I apologize for getting testy but this argument keeps going on and on month after month and I still think it is dumb. It all boils down to whatever floats your boat! If you guys have it in your mind that taping the spine in some way gives you a better shave - have at it. You are the ones who have to shave with your razors and you are the ones you have to make happy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Crowley

I think part of the problem is you guys are looking at the bevel as being the honed shiny area above the cutting edge of the razor and not thinking of the bevel as an angle. A bevel on a knife is a totally different animal from a bevel on a razor but if you thicken the spine eventually you will have a pocket knife. (acute = sharp and obtuse = dull)

Webster definition of a bevel when used as a noun:
the angle that one surface or line makes with another when they are not at right angles b : the slant of such a surface or line

Obtuse when used as an adjective: not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.

Acute when used as an adjective: sharp at the end; ending in a point.

If you tape the spine sure it will not polish as much of the blade going down to the cutting edge but it makes the bevel angle less acute, (more obtuse), and trends towards making a duller cutting edge.

I apologize for getting testy but this argument keeps going on and on month after month and I still think it is dumb. It all boils down to whatever floats your boat! If you guys have it in your mind that taping the spine in some way gives you a better shave - have at it. You are the ones who have to shave with your razors and you are the ones you have to make happy.

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I was wondering if this is what you meant. Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Crowley

I think part of the problem is you guys are looking at the bevel as being the honed shiny area above the cutting edge of the razor and not thinking of the bevel as an angle. A bevel on a knife is a totally different animal from a bevel on a razor but if you thicken the spine eventually you will have a pocket knife. (acute = sharp and obtuse = dull)


If you tape the spine sure it will not polish as much of the blade going down to the cutting edge but it makes the bevel angle less acute, (more obtuse), and trends towards making a duller cutting edge.

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Now i think i see what you were saying... and I agree that it's all about angles, but it has to be the correct angle, too acute and you'll have problems too. If it is about angles it would seem to make sense that if years of neglectful or overzealous honing left a spine so thin that the angle of the bevel became shallower than the "ideal", using something to thicken up the spine would allow you to get the correct angle back.

I would at least try that before sending it for a regrind... couldn't hurt