sharpness question

I've been hesitant to post this, but I'd really like the opinion of you gents.

I recently purchased a Boker from SRD. (fyi, with the current combo deal, you can get a 2" strop for $10 above the price of the Boker alone, and it comes with lifetime honing until 12/31. what a deal!)

I was super excited to see what a razor sharpened by Lynn would feel like. This is only my second "shave ready" razor and I wanted to compare it to the Bengal I bought from the classifieds here. The Bengal shaves as well as can be expected in the hands of a beginner, but I always had a lingering question about just how sharp it was. The Boker was to be my reference point.

Well I shaved with it on Saturday for the first time and it didn't seem better then the Bengal. I'm sure my expectation were a little inflated, but I was a little disappointed with the Boker. I didn't strop it before use. I figured with my limited stropping experience my poor technique might do more damage then good. It pulled pretty bad. It wouldn't pass the HHT or pop arm hairs (the Bengal won't do either also FWIW). On Monday, I shaved with it again along with the Bengal to compare them side by side. This time I stropped the Boker. It definitely shaved better this time, but I wasn't sure if stropping improved the edge or if I just got better using the razor (the Boker is a full hollow while the Bengal is not as hollow). I've decided they are both about the same in terms of sharpness.

Based on what I read here, I hold Lynn and SRD in very very high regard. Was I expecting too much? I hate to sound like I'm disparaging Lynn or SRD. Honestly I don't know enough to judge them positively or negatively lol I realize that we're all human, so perhaps my Boker was honed on a "bad day" or something. Maybe it's actually as good as it gets and I have unrealistic notions of what "sharp" is.

I'm happy with the razor all in all and will be purchasing another from SRD before the "Priceless Offer" runs out, so I'm not trying to be negative towards them at all. I'm just trying to gain a more informed perspective with the help of the more experienced members here. Is my Boker sharp enough or do I just need to continue improving my technique?

Thanks for your input gentlemen :)

Sounds like your problem is not with the razors but with how you use them. That's pretty typical, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Using straight razor is very different from using a mach3 where you can just press it as hard as you can to your face. You have to use light touch, proper angle and smooth and confident stroke. That takes time to learn and build muscle memory.

I very much doubt your razor was honed on a 'bad day', as Lynn says that he tests every razor before shipping it out. Of course, if you're not convinced you can always send it back for rehoning, that shouldn't be an issue.

First let me emphasize that I don't know the answer. Diagnostics from this distance is impossible in most cases for me.

I still stand in a little disbelief at the whole honing by proxy concept. The idea of honing, shipping, and then shaving with a razor reminds of someone sighting in a rifle, shipping it to me, and then me trying to shoot an impala at 1,000 yards with it.

I would guess though that the problem might sit in the stropping and shaving area. Not that you are doing something wrong, but more in the using it a bit and stropping it with more passes. Even when I hone a razor up myself there is usually a few days where I need to do extra stropping (and even shaving) to get the razor to smooth out a bit.

I'm going to suggest just trying it for a few more days, do more stropping, and only send it back after you've spent some time with it. That would be my current advice. After a week or so I might send it back.

If you just got your first drivers license today and bought yourself a new Porshe 911 do you think you would really be able to judge the performance of the car or would you first need some driving experience?

No difference with straights.

Thanks guys :)

I am reluctant to think anything ill of Lynn, so it's great to get some affirmations of that feeling.

I plan to keep using the Boker. I was mostly unsettled that the razor won't pass any of the common sharpness tests. ie HHT or popping arm hairs. Granted, my Bengal won't pass either also :p

Maybe the hair I use for HHT is too soft. I use my wife's hair from her brush. I'll try my hair next time. I have long hair, so I use a comb. None stays on it typically ;)

Maybe my arm hair is too tough for the razor lol
/e does a mightly flex pose LOL

I have a number of Lynn honed razors that I've bought from SRD, Classic, and Vintage. Some were slightly 'better' than others but all were stellar shavers. Follow the advice given in the previous posts. If it works out that you have to send one back if I were you I would send them both. Get the Bengal pro honed along with the Boker and you'll have two guaranteed to deliver the goods.

The finest edge will pull with a poorly prepped shave.
Tell, us how you prep your face for shaving...what creams, hot towel treatment, after shower etc...

Many thanks,

Mac

Prep is most important. Also you might try shaving with the spine of your razor one spine width away from your skin [ shallow angle ] and holding the razor with as little finger force as you can.

I also have a tendency to use a scything motion and I think this motion helps me shave a little tighter to my skin. Just my opinion.....

Keep shaving no matter what !..:beer2:... JERRY

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Originally Posted by Hayduke

Thanks guys :)

I am reluctant to think anything ill of Lynn, so it's great to get some affirmations of that feeling.

I plan to keep using the Boker. I was mostly unsettled that the razor won't pass any of the common sharpness tests. ie HHT or popping arm hairs. Granted, my Bengal won't pass either also :p

Maybe the hair I use for HHT is too soft. I use my wife's hair from her brush. I'll try my hair next time. I have long hair, so I use a comb. None stays on it typically ;)

Maybe my arm hair is too tough for the razor lol
/e does a mightly flex pose LOL

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the only HHT test that will give you definitive answer for the sharpness of your razor will be with your own beard hair.

I used the Boker again this morning. The shave was pretty nice.

While I'm still new to straights, I've been wet shaving, with a DE, for awhile now (a year or two?).

I always shave right after taking a shower. While in the shower, the brush soaks in my mug which is in the sink filled with hot water. After the shower, I make my lather and apply it to my face. I let it sit on my beard while I strop the razor. This morning I did a dozenish passes on the webbing then ~30-40 passes on the leather. I have been experimenting a little bit with different creams and soaps recently (I got a ton of samples a few months back that I'm still working through). For several shaves prior to today, I've been using cream and a tallow based soap (Monsavon), but this morning I went back to just cream. I tried Nancy Boy signature this morning. It produces great lather, but I don't care for the menthol smells.

There was definitely less pulling this morning and I don't think I made any new cuts :p There was a small amount of blood from shaving over old cuts though ;)

I guess I'm still learning what "sharp" is. I'm starting to think the difference between the hollower Boker and the Bengal is what caused me to question the sharpness. The razor just shaves different. I won't say if it's better or worse yet until I develop a preference.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I'm pretty confident the Boker is plenty sharp, it's just my inexperience that caused me to question it. I have little to compare too, so it helps to benefit from other members' experiences :)

Thanks again gents :tu

I think its not that Lynn put a bad edge on it. Lets say hypothetically that you had perfect technique. Maybe both blades are sharper than your threshold for distinguishing- I certainly can't tell the difference between sharp level 49 and sharp level 50 lol.

On the other hand, maybe the guy who honed your razor was good too. There are a lot of unsung heroes (:p) on this forum who can put a wicked edge on the blade, they just aren't honemeisters.

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Originally Posted by khaos

I think its not that Lynn put a bad edge on it. Lets say hypothetically that you had perfect technique. Maybe both blades are sharper than your threshold for distinguishing- I certainly can't tell the difference between sharp level 49 and sharp level 50 lol.

On the other hand, maybe the guy who honed your razor was good too. There are a lot of unsung heroes (:p) on this forum who can put a wicked edge on the blade, they just aren't honemeisters.

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Exactly! I'm starting to think that the member that sold me the Bengal did a superb job honing the blade. I cannot recall who it was and the listing has expired :( I sorta wish there was still a BST forum. I wasn't here when it was switched to the classifieds so I don't know the reasoning behind that change.

Anyway, I think I have been assuming the Bengal was good, but not great. It turns out that the Bengal is just as sharp as the Boker. So I was hoping to see an improvement with a sharper blade, but the reality is I just need to continue to improve my technique.

I'm feeling my face and the shave is oh so smooooth :D
I did a WTG and ATG pass with the Boker. Cheeks are great, neck is pretty good but not perfect. I did still make an ATG pass with my Futur on the mustache. Everywhere else was the Boker. I may be getting the hang of this! lol

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

If you just got your first drivers license today and bought yourself a new Porshe 911

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There is a very high probability this scenario would find you off the road in a ditch (or worse) within the first few miles.

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Originally Posted by Hayduke

Anyway, I think I have been assuming the Bengal was good, but not great. It turns out that the Bengal is just as sharp as the Boker. So I was hoping to see an improvement with a sharper blade, but the reality is I just need to continue to improve my technique.

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Now that's a problematic assumption. I've had many bengalls and no current production bokers, but given the choice I'll take a bengall for sure.
Then there's quite a bit of misconception about honing. There are two limiting factors (1) the razor (2) the honing. A honemeister will consistently get the razors pretty close to their limit, but I'd rather shave with a dubl duck honed by a guy with a year of honing experience, than say a fromm or gold dollar honed by lynn.

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Originally Posted by gugi

Now that's a problematic assumption. I've had many bengalls and no current production bokers, but given the choice I'll take a bengall for sure.
Then there's quite a bit of misconception about honing. There are two limiting factors (1) the razor (2) the honing. A honemeister will consistently get the razors pretty close to their limit, but I'd rather shave with a dubl duck honed by a guy with a year of honing experience, than say a fromm or gold dollar honed by lynn.

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Yep, I'm realizing I probably hold many assumptions that are inaccurate and potentially problematic :p

It is nice to know that my Bengal is at least 90% (probably 99%) as sharp as the Boker from SRD.

I just had no reference point really, so I'm having trouble defining "sharp".

The shave with the Boker and the Bengal have both improved with each use. I guess I expected my technique to improve at the same rate as with my DE razors. I think I had that down pat within a week or so. Now I can shave with a Feather in my Futur set to 6 (or whatever the max is). I'm sure I'll get there with the straight too, but it's definitely a longer learning curve then with a DE.

what's the point of testing a razor prior to shaving if shaving with it is the true test of a razors sharpness? because that's how we guage,with experience how well the razor will shave.it is a combination of both these procedures that tell us this.hayduke has a point.if the razor is not splitting hairs,why would it shave any better?

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Originally Posted by balaban9331

what's the point of testing a razor prior to shaving if shaving with it is the true test of a razors sharpness? because that's how we guage,with experience how well the razor will shave.it is a combination of both these procedures that tell us this.hayduke has a point.if the razor is not splitting hairs,why would it shave any better?

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Well there are a lot of factors- the first and most important being beard hair is not head hair. Head hair might be weaker or stronger than beard hair. Also, the finer cross section means it is less stiff so it might bend before it gets cut, where as beard hair is anchored in your face and is a lot stiffer. There are lots of reasons why it might not work, but if you practice it you learn what to expect from it and then you are right.

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Originally Posted by Hayduke

I'm sure I'll get there with the straight too, but it's definitely a longer learning curve then with a DE.

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Two years since I started and last night I was shaving and figured out another , and better way, to stretch a problem area on my neck. If you think about it we are shaving for 15 to 20 minutes once a day or maybe for some every other day. That really isn't much time to practice. I don't know when I will have the technique perfected, if ever, but I am still learning as I continue to shave. Not on every shave but once in awhile I get an epiphany. :idea:

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Originally Posted by khaos

Well there are a lot of factors- the first and most important being beard hair is not head hair. Head hair might be weaker or stronger than beard hair. Also, the finer cross section means it is less stiff so it might bend before it gets cut, where as beard hair is anchored in your face and is a lot stiffer. There are lots of reasons why it might not work, but if you practice it you learn what to expect from it and then you are right.

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You're understanding exactly where I'm coming from :)
A shave test is always the best way to tell how sharp a razor is, but we have developed other methods as well. Through experience, we learn that if the razor does [pick your favorite test], it has a high likelihood to shave well.

My problem is I do not have that experience to assess sharpness, so I started this thread to benefit from the experience of others. Because I'm still a newb, I can't even use the shave test very well. The razor could be very sharp, but I don't know how to use it, so I get a poor shave. :p

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Two years since I started and last night I was shaving and figured out another , and better way, to stretch a problem area on my neck. If you think about it we are shaving for 15 to 20 minutes once a day or maybe for some every other day. That really isn't much time to practice. I don't know when I will have the technique perfected, if ever, but I am still learning as I continue to shave. Not on every shave but once in awhile I get an epiphany. :idea:

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Thanks Jimmy. I appreciate that, but at the same time I'm disheartened to learn that it may take me two years to get good at this. I was hoping a few months max LOL

We are all always newbs. Not just in shaving, in life too.

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Originally Posted by khaos

Well there are a lot of factors- the first and most important being beard hair is not head hair. Head hair might be weaker or stronger than beard hair. Also, the finer cross section means it is less stiff so it might bend before it gets cut, where as beard hair is anchored in your face and is a lot stiffer. There are lots of reasons why it might not work, but if you practice it you learn what to expect from it and then you are right.

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exactly the point i'm making.he has to start and learn from somewhere.i'm saying it should be from the begining.these little razor tests are a good start point for a newb.testing a razor while shaving,although the best test,is not the best solution.hayduke,if you feel the razor is not sharp enough,what's the harm in getting lynn to tell you that it is in fact sharp.or not for that matter?i'm sure he'd be happy to help out.although i don't know him personally,i only hear good things about him.

Sometimes when I get back a honed straight, it will be sharp, but not the smoothest shave I desire. I have to treat it to some passes on my pasted strop,then the leather strop. This smooths it up a bit and finesses the alignment of the microfins. From this point, I am up and shaving and very happy with the smoothness factor and shaving performance.

Do what feels right for you!

Pabster

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Originally Posted by balaban9331

exactly the point i'm making.he has to start and learn from somewhere.i'm saying it should be from the begining.these little razor tests are a good start point for a newb.testing a razor while shaving,although the best test,is not the best solution.hayduke,if you feel the razor is not sharp enough,what's the harm in getting lynn to tell you that it is in fact sharp.or not for that matter?i'm sure he'd be happy to help out.although i don't know him personally,i only hear good things about him.

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I'm sure Lynn would provide superb customer service and take care of me, but I don't want to think it isn't sharp out of ignorance. The blade's shave seems to be improving over the 3 times I've used it so far, so I'm pretty sure it's fine. My technique just needs to get to the same level as Lynn's sharpening :P