Thread: worst case scenario

Hey I have a question for the members that understand the metal composition of a blade (carbon steel) and how it affects honing.
It seems like a simple question, but I suspect it wont have a simple answer.... feel free to be as winded as necessary.
So, here goes. As far as razors go, assuming you had a really crappy one. And by crappy I mean ebay special. New, no pits, no rust. Just cheap. What makes this razor "cheap"?. Is it inferior metal? less carbon in the steel? and if so, how does that affect the baldes ability to a) get sharp and b) stay sharp?
with ebay blades, is the problem that you just cant get em sharp enough period? Or is it that they wont "hold" and edge for more than a shave... making them VERY high maintenance and needing to be honed so often that they are not worth it?

So, what's the worst case scenario? It will NEVER get sharp enough to shave comfortably with, or it just wont stay that way for very long?

Thanks!

I'm not really sure what you mean by "ebay special." There are some excellent razors to be had on eBay for not a lot of money. I picked up a 6/8 Wostenholm IXL made between 1847 and 1872 with very little hone wear, very little rust and no pitting, a few minor scratches on the back side of the blade, for about $35. Also a 5/8 Anchor Brand with lots of light pitting on both sides of the blade for about $20. I had both restored and both are excellent shavers. The Anchor definitely has a more vintage-y look to it, but it takes and holds an excellent edge.

Tha being said, there are plenty of junk razors available on eBay as well. I didn't buy those two razors unitl after several months of reading and studying lots in these forums and in the Wiki. In general, I think most folks here would say stay away from the Chinese-made Gold Dollar razors, and never buy any razor made in Pakistan. One give-away there is a razor listed as a "vintage new straight razor." They're not talking about new old stock (NOS). If you read the descriptions of those listings, they'll usually say they were made in Pakistan. Avoid like the plague. I'm not sure what specifically makes them not take or hold a good edge--whether it's the compostion of the steel or how the steel was actually made--but according to what I've read in the forums here, they just won't. As one of the members here has said in his signature line (hope I get this right), "Buying cheap tools to save money is false economy."

I am sure if the steel has the proper temper or is too brittle so the edge breaks down before it can become shave ready but I am sure someone here knows the specifics. I just know that the one I started practicing with over a year ago has never been able to give a quality shave ( Zeepk) and every vintage blade I have picked up ( antique store or ebay ) has never had any problems with honing.

Originally Posted by Durhampiper

I'm not sure what specifically makes them not take or hold a good edge--whether it's the compostion of the steel or how the steel was actually made--but according to what I've read in the forums here, they just won't.

Thank you for yor response, but that is exactly what I am trying to find out.
In my mind there is a difference between:

-Can't
-Really hard to do
or
-just not worth it

I am trying to figure out exactly which of these is the case with these cheap razors (inexpensive NIB ebay deals), and more importantly, why that is.
If a razor is made from a substandard composition, or by poor manufacturing processes, will this mean that a razor just cannot EVER take a good edge (because it is too brittle, and will chip prematurely of meeting at a sharp bevel), or does it just mean that the metal is too soft to HOLD a good edge, meaning that a razor-sharp, shave ready edge is possible, but due to the particular composition of the steel these Pakistan (just for example) razors are made form, the edge is too soft and won't STAY sharp beyond a shave or two, thus requiring frequent re-honing.

To some hard headed people, myself included, it is simply not enough to tell someone a product sucks, stay away. They want to know why.
I am curious to a fault, and love to know the whys of things, not just their outcomes. And, if any group of people are knowledgeable enough to shed some light, it is you awesome gents!

I dont think its a hard steel versus soft steel thing, old Sheffields are of a softer steel than more modern razors IMO. I think the problem with the newer Pakistani/Chinese blades is that they are making a product to sell and not serve. Its a piece of cheap eye candy and that is it, never intended to serve the true purpose of a razor. They make, they sell it and it has served their purpose only by emptying your pocket and filling theirs. Bad metal composition, grinding, temper etc. They may not even know from batch to batch what the actual composition is, no quality control whatsover, or any interest in it. When you hit the "buy it now" button, the life of the razor was over, it had served its purpose.

For an example of what can go wrong:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...chips-why.html

And an example of "geometry problems" caused by bad grinding during manufacture:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...r-trouble.html

I'm not experienced enough to distinguish between "too hard to be worthwhile" and "impossible". But I can tell you there's a big difference in "honeability" between a good razor (which includes almost all the vintage razors I've sharpened) and the bad ones.

Charles

PS: I sympathize with your wish to know why the bad razors are bad, and the good ones, good. I started out thinking that way myself. I don't care much, anymore. If a razor won't hold a good edge -- as proven by the hones and my face -- why bother with a Rockwell hardness test?

For a long time I tried almost every one of those razors out, I am stubborn too...

I have Honed or Attempted to hone most every razor on the Do Not Buy List.. I actually used to send PM's to people that had complained about buying them on here, and ask to try....

From the Zeepk to the Kreigers, Frosts, and Master's

I have tried Venus, Sanguines, and Salter's too

They all fall into three basic catagories...

1.)
They cannot take a shaving edge, it just will never get that sharp...

2.)
They get that sharp, and then lose it after a shaving stroke ot two

3.)
They will take and hold the edge but they are not cost effective, they cost as much as an entry level Dovo or TI by the time it is all said and done...Plus I never tested how long they would hold the edge...Just that they would shave for a time or two...

And please as always do not take my word for it test them youself....

My 2 words will be.
Man don't waste of your time.
gl

I am an unrepentant cheapskate and see Gold Dollars as real money
savers. You can buy a hand full for twenty bucks and use them to learn
honing technique and muscle memory. Hate to learn on a spanking new
Dovo or a 118 year old J Heiffor.
My "practice" razors now cut up old clothes for shop rags.
So, just because they're cheap it doesn't mean they're junk.

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

I dont think its a hard steel versus soft steel thing, old Sheffields are of a softer steel than more modern razors IMO. I think the problem with the newer Pakistani/Chinese blades is that they are making a product to sell and not serve. Its a piece of cheap eye candy and that is it, never intended to serve the true purpose of a razor. They make, they sell it and it has served their purpose only by emptying your pocket and filling theirs. Bad metal composition, grinding, temper etc. They may not even know from batch to batch what the actual composition is, no quality control whatsover, or any interest in it. When you hit the "buy it now" button, the life of the razor was over, it had served its purpose.

+1 on the above - I also think a big problem is one of quality control in that any old steel tends to get used. Thus I have a Gold Dollar that has a superb edge (yes honestly - even if it is a little higher maintenance) and yet other GD's I've come across are better employed as letter openers or butter knives. Same goes for Imperial, Royal and whatever other stuff comes out of certain places that use heat treatments (sic) that bend the blade like Robin Hood's bow. It's lack of consistency. A good one is OK but it's a tiny nugget in a big mountain.......

I've even seen small print in certain ads that says 'not suitable for shaving' for these things. Well at least they got that right!