How sharp is sharp???

Hi everyone,
I've been shaving for about one month now and I feel that my razor has gotten progressively duller as the days go on. I've sharpened it so that it will pass the wet thumbnail test, it feels smooth and bights in. When I rub it against the skin of my wet thumb, it wants to cut in without sensation from my thumb.
When I try to shave with it, taking all of the beard preparation steps possible, I just can't get a BBS shave.

Should the razor cut every hair in it's path on the first swipe WTG? I only get about 50%

Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Dundee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dundee

I've sharpened it so that it will pass the wet thumbnail test, it feels smooth and bights in.

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That is a test for whether the bevel is set. It will dull a shave ready edge.

Other than shaving with it, there is not a real good definitive test to say whether a blade is shave ready. Go back to the hones and try to feel a difference in sharpness with your thumbpad, or look for a difference in how it cuts arm hair. When you think it's good try shaving. After some time, you'll learn to tell by feel or some other indicator when the blade is ready to shave test.
It takes practice and experience to get it. Very few people get the hang of it right away. It does take some time to learn.

So... keep at it, and stop dulling the razor on your thumbnail!
Good luck.

I suggest more practice at honing. Any number of variables could be in play here. Talk us through the honing process and we might be able to help. Are you doing the TNT after you have finished honing? I would go back and give it a few more strokes on the hone if you did. Are you stropping after honing? I can ask many more questions, but you need to give more information for anyone to ask the real relevant questions.


Mick

Thanks for the input Gents.
I have set the bevel on a 1000 grit Japanesse water stone. I had some trouble though. The razor laid flat on the hone on one side, but on the other, the blade sat wasn't in full contact with the hone. (The spine was in full contact with the stone, but the two outside edges of the blade were high about .25mm. Enough to create a shadow line.) I tried to flatten this side best I could, it still isn't 100% flat.

I then circular honed 20 times on 1000 grit, followed by 20 laps leading with the edge. Next step was 20 circular passes (each side) on 4000 grit waterstone, and 20 full laps leading with the edge. I don't have a 8000 grit stone, so I just stropped the heck out of it on linen, then leather.

I am guessing that I need to get a 8000 grit stone. For all of the honing and stroping techniques, I have used minimal pressure and I took my sweet time to insure that the razor laid flat.

So what do you folks think that I am having trouble with the most??

Cheers

You do need a higher grit hone.

You probably need to spend more time working the bevel on your 1k as well. It is ok to use pressure when setting a bevel, and unless you're working on a brand new razor, or a razor that was previously shave ready and doesn't need much work, you will probably need more than 20 circles and 20 laps.

As to the warp in your blade you can either do rolling strokes to make contact (which takes some practice to get the muscle memory to do it well) or you can do a bunch of flat strokes, which will take it out eventually but leave you with an uneven bevel. It will be functional, it just won't look quite as pretty.

Agree, for a good shave you will need a higher grit than 4000. What kind of blade is it? Are your hones lapped flat? Either way it has to be sharp at the heel and the tip of the blade. Bevel has to be set at 1000 before you move on to higher grits. If edge is dull at tip, more work on 1000 needed. Good luck.
MIke

The wet thumbnail test, as has been said, is only a test to use early in the honing process of razors that need the bevel set, as it will damage the edge. It is important to know this, which is why I am repeating it after someone else already stated it. :) You can use it on higher grits too, but it takes work to remove the damage caused by the thumbnail and the amount of work required increases with stone fineness.

I'm going to buck the trend here and suggest that if you are new to honing you put aside the 1K stone and try creating the bevel on the 4K. The reason I am suggesting this is two-fold. First, you'll do less damage less quickly with a 4K hone if there is something wrong with your technique. Second, you'll have to do more work with the 4K hone (it will take more strokes and hence more time) and it is a good way to get plenty of practice in developing good technique, and cementing muscle memory. Just a suggestion though, feel free to ignore it.

One other suggestion - use a magic marker to see where any trouble spots are. Colour in both sides of the bevel with magic marker, then hone using your normal stroke for a few laps. Then take a look at where the marker has or has not worn off. It can be an eye opening experience to experiment with different strokes, angles, pressures, and variations in hand positions using the magic marker, particularly if you use a 4K hone to minimise excessive wear while doing it. The aim is to develop a consistent stroke that hits all parts of the edge evenly (ie evenly abrades the marker on the entire bevel in one stroke per side). Any excess magic marker will wipe off with alcohol.

Good luck,

James.

Great advice Jimbo,
I noticed that having more patience with a high grit hone is a better practice (for a newbie like me) than by moving on to a low grit stone too early and honing with poor technique. I'll rehone with a 1000 and try to set the bevel more next time. Plus, I need to get a 4/8 Stone.

Thanks for the great advice everyone. I appreciate it. I have been having so much fun in the morning, ever since I got into this unique hobby. It's great to have such amazing input from so many different perspectives.

Keep on shavin'
Dundee

With regards to the blade not laying flat on one side, a technique I use for my one blade that has a slight warp, is to lay the blade as poor normal for the honing stroke, but in the process of the stroke I run my finger down the side of the blade. This will (hopefully) place the little extra pressure needed on the blade to ensure contact of the edge to the stone. I advise caution when doing this, as you will get a cut if you do it wrong. Do it right, and you have no fear of being cut as the edge is on the stone.
I have shaved successfully (not comfortably) off a 6k, but I recommend, as the others have said, about going to at least 8k for a true shave ready razor. Higher grits make for a smoother shave if you choose to go beyond 8k. I only go to a C12k (or PHIG is you like). I don't own any of those fancy hones from Shrapton or Naniwa. I'm too cheap for that :).


Mick

Coming off a 1k bevel setter, I like to test the entire edge against my arm hair... If the razor will catch and pop a hair the whole length of the edge, then I move onto the 4k.
Magic marker is a good tip, especially if you suspect an uneven grind.

Great ideas/techniques.
Thanks.

I'll try the 1k arm hair popping technique next time. :)

Dundee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dundee

....snip...
I have set the bevel on a 1000 grit Japanesse water stone.
...snip....
I tried to flatten this side best I could, it still isn't 100% flat.
....snip...
Next step was 20 circular passes (each side) on 4000 grit waterstone, and 20 full laps leading with the edge. I don't have a 8000 grit stone
....snip...

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First use a magic market to verify that
the bevel is well set at 1k and 4k. The razor
can have a lot of oddness in its shape and
variations in hone strokes can adapt. A modified
X hone stroke is worth some research. Magic marker
will make it easy to see if the entire bevel is
being honed well.

With a 4000 grit stone you are going to wish
you had a finer hone.

There is not too much you can do but there are
some make do tricks that might help.

You can save the slurry and swarf from your 4k hone efforts
and 'paint' it lightly on common cardboard. Fold the cardboard
along the corrugations so you have a three inch wide
flat surface. Let the "painted" cardboard dry and then
lightly strop your razor on the pasted cardboard strop. The slurry bits
will embed themselves in the cardboard and act as if they
are finer than 4k.

After a bit of stropping on pasted cardboard wrap some news
print on the cardboard "make do" strop and strop on newsprint.

After newsprint switch to your clean canvas strop (50) and then your clean leather
finish strop (50).

Nice nifftyshaving,
I like the poorboy approach. My whole goal in this endeavor is to bring down the cost and impact of disposable shaving. We will have to see how it goes over time cause I am starting to like this!!

A wise man once said " A blunt razor cuts the deepest"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dundee

Nice nifftyshaving,
I like the poorboy approach. My whole goal in this endeavor is to bring down the cost and impact of disposable shaving. We will have to see how it goes over time cause I am starting to like this!!

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Do keep you eye open for an 8k hone or perhaps a barber hone.
The poorboy approach can result in poor edges.

Since we all have different whiskers and faces what works
for you will be different than what works for me. For me
a shave needs a good hone one good step beyond 8k to be
enjoyable.

A number of solutions that work for an individual are not reliable
enough for a professional razor sharpener.

Stropping on newsprint is one of those tricks.

Slurry and swarf that we commonly wash down a
drain is interesting stuff. By suspending the grit
in water it can be classified by letting it settle
for a while the heavy coarse bits settle out to
the bottom first. The milky 'suspension' can be
decanted and used to paste make-do strops.

Make-do strops can be made with any number of
materials... from cardboard, to balsa to whatever.
My favorite is a strop made from silk ties.

Dundee sharp is subjective to a lot of factors hone grit and experience are the two main ones as i see it,if you can't afford a higher grit stone i would look into getting some diamond or cro ox paste for the back of your strop or any other flat surface,it will refine and polish a 4k edge quite well and make do until you get more stones,stepping to your 4k sooner than usual will take longer but that time will polish more of the courser stone scratches out but if you really want sharper and smoother you need the higher grit stones,now to explore the different degrees of sharpness finer stones are needed and you need to sharpen test then repeat until you get to the over sharpened edge,the finer the stone the more you can push it to get the experience as once you know the difference in different degrees of sharpness you know what it feels like

IMO, sharp is not subjective. Shave sharp means that a razor takes out all the stuble on its path. The degree of shave sharp, shave-readiness, is subjective since 'ready for a comfortable shave' is open too many interpretations. Sharp is not. If your razor does not take out all the stuble, it's not sharp enough. I don't necessarily mean that it delivers a one pass baby-butt smooth shave, but every hair must be cut.

What I've found is that the hanging hair test is an indicator when the razor can cut hair, after having set a bevel indicated by the TPT/TNT. I hone on for quite a bit after the first good HHT results, at some point I decide that the edge is done. Strop, shave test a small patch, and if it's not good enough back to honing. Repeat until you get a satisfactory result or start to get really pissed off :)

As said, using TPT/TNT beyond the bevel setting stage will only dull your edge, effectively throwing you back to where you started a bit before the bevel was set. It's like taking 2 steps forward, 3 back.


@Dundee: I'd suggest you do two things:

(1) Go through some of the wiki articles here.
(2) Get higher grit equipment.

At least up to 8000 Norton or comparable synthetic Japanese waterstone, if you decide to go for a stone. Or a coticule, very versatile, relatively cheap, takes a bit of time to master but then again, you decided to learn straight shaving. Honing is a part of that, IMO.

When honing starting at bevel setting to shave-ready, you can't cut any corners. You don't need 27 natural progression and finishing stones to get a razor shave sharp (I have had one combination coticule now for about two months and getting (really) good shave-ready results), but your progression must be complete.

Or in other words: you can't brush your teeth with a stick and you can't eat soup with a fork.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Or in other words: you can't brush your teeth with a stick and you can't eat soup with a fork.

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Teeth cleaning twig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarleyFXST

Teeth cleaning twig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:w

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LOL :gth

Aaaw, damn! Should've known... Okay then, new and improved:

'You can't brush your teeth with a fork and you can't eat soup with a stick".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dundee

Nice nifftyshaving,
I like the poorboy approach. My whole goal in this endeavor is to bring down the cost and impact of disposable shaving. We will have to see how it goes over time cause I am starting to like this!!

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a PHIG (People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit) is cheap for a high grit stone. But you roll the dice with those. I own 2, one of them just can't give a nice edge no matter how hard I try, the other is absolutely amazing.

Great feedback Pithor!
That settles it. I've got a Norton 4000/8000 in the mail. I've had to shave with a disposable for two days now cause I don't have a blade and i can't take it! Thanks for all of the feedback. I know what to look for now when I am preparing the blade.

When you are learning to shave and hone, it is hard to tell how sharp is sharp. Even if your first blade wsa prepaired by a professional. Mine was but I didn't know what to do with it so my shave was sub par. Now that my technique has gotten better, the blade has gotten duller. I think that I am getting the hang of it from using all of the advise listed above. My razor is quite sharp now at 4000 and I'll see what I can do with the 8000.

Cheers good people,
Dundee

I just got the 4/8 Norton stone, honed for about 1 hour (really working on technique), and just had my first baby's butt smooth shave. Thanks for everything guys!

Dundee