Razor mfg time period??

[mrsell63]

I have a 7day set mfg'd by Hill & Son, 4 Hay Market S.W.
The set is in an oak box with a brass plate attached to the lid stating that it was presented to one C. Welch in July 1923.

My difficulty lies in the fact that these razors must have been mfg'd prior to 1891 since that was the year when an international agreement was reached that all products would have the counrty of manufacture stamped on them.

Neither the oak box nor the razors have the city or country of manufacture stamped on them. My question then is may I safely presume that the set was made prior to 1891 but was not presented to the recipient until 1923?

Also, this set has never been used, never been honed and the wedges are definitely made of lead which increases the possibility of manufacture back to the 1800's. And under 40x illuminated magnification, the pins do not appear the be backed with washers. Just pins peined over.

Any thoughts will be very much appreciated..............

[ignatz]

Just a few observations in connection with this question.

True enough the razor set was probably produced prior to its presentation date. As I'm sure that Hill & Son sold many of these boxed sets, they would have been in the position of ordering quite a stock of them beforehand. The thorny question is just exactly how long before that presentation date. Would they have ordered so many boxed razor sets prior to 1891 that they still had some in stock more than thirty years later?

The stamping of the country of origin would definitely apply to those razors intended for the export market. However, I am wondering if this would have been considered a requirement for those razors produced for local use.

A second point is that the razors have been branded with the name of the (local) firm that was selling them. Likewise the presentation box has been similarly branded. There would have been absolutely no confusion in the mind of the purchaser as to the 'source' of the razors. However, even having said that, it is possible that the razors were produced for Hill & Son by a foreign company (German?) but were intended as a restricted, locally-sold product which might, again, have been a way around the requirement to mark the country of origin.

I'm not certain that the use of the lead spacer necessarily dates the age of the razor. True enough it is found on many older razors, but I'm not sure that this necessarily excludes its use in more recently scaled razors. Once could conceivably even use lead as a spacer today without it offering any problem whatsoever. The material is easily worked, stable in a wet environment and in this application would not represent a health hazard.

Even if the razors were produced before the date of presentation, we have to consider two other factors which bear on the possible extreme date of manufacture.

The first is that the deep hollow grinding which these blades show was not developed until the 1870's. Therefore, the blades could not possibly be any older than that.

A second factor is the history of the retail outlet, Hill & Son. It is not conceivable that any manufacturer would have stamped the blades with this particular brand name before being paid to do so.

A casual web search for "Hill & Son" Haymarket led me to the following link where one can see a set of ice skates which bear the mark of Hill & Son dated 'circa 1890'. AntiqueIceSkatesEngland

Here is yet another link to a pdf file showing auction items. Lot number 180 in the file refers to a folding field amputation saw provided by Hill & Son, date of manufacture being circa 1876. http://www.skinnerinc.com/pdf/400_2.pdf?thisID=18020

Finally, another set of ice skates for sale. These, too, marked Hill & Son, but manufactured circa 1870. Obviously, the firm of Hill & Son had a long history which even predates the art of deep, double-wheel hollow grinding of razors. SkatesForSale1

It is also obvious to me that the firm of Hill & Son was in the business of branding and selling all sorts of diverse items. In this regard they might be likened to certain large mail order companies. One prominent name which comes to mind is Sears, Roebuck and Co. which subcontracted their manufacturing requirements to various companies throughout the nation (and world), but always ever had the goods branded with the Sears name. There, too, it is often difficult to find a precise indication of manufacturing date/location for quite a few of the items they sold.

I do hope this information is of some use to you.

- Ignatz

PS. It must be said that this is a beautiful set of razors no matter when they were manufactured.

[thebigspendur]

Just based on size and hollow grind I have little doubt they are 20th century made razors. I would guess they probably were made around 1920 or so. The fact things were supposed to have origin marks on them doesn't mean everything did and I doubt the razors sat around 30 years before sale.

[mrsell63]

Thanks Ignatz for all that research on Hill & Son.
You would make a top-notch private investigator.....

[JimmyHAD]

I tend to agree with Ignatz that it could be the razors were never intended for export and therefore no country of origin stamping was necessary. Nice set BTW.

[blueprinciple]

I have a set of Hills and they were "suppliers to Gentlemen" of a wide range of goods. As to the country of origin not being present, as has been said they were not 'export' pieces as such. Probably Sheffield made, BTW - in the 20's not many German-made goods were sold in the UK, memories were still too fresh.

There's always the possibility of an old set in a new case of course!

[manah]

Hill & Son No.4 Haymarket St. S.W.London, 1875-1900.
Possibly, the owner was Edwin S.Hill (Truefitt & Hill).

[Johnrv501]

Hill & Son No.4 Haymarket St. S.W.London, 1875-1900.
Possibly, the owner was Edwin S.Hill (Truefitt & Hill).

This was the info I was looking for Thanks Manah!, I too have a 7day set of Hill&Son 4 Haymarket, they came in a dark walnut or cocabolo lockable case with mini skeleton key and adorned with brass side striping and a blank engravable plate on the lid (I really should post a pic or two huh?..). The scales are wafer thin Genuine Ivory. Not sure what I am going to do with them. I already have a set of seven Cattaraugus Identical cracked ice scaled indian head shavers, but they are not stamped with days of the week. Just the box is marked with the days of the week, which may just be a vintage generic box. It seems these Hill and Sons may be older than my Cats though.