Some razor porn

I replied to a post the other day that I had a Hiram Gilbert razor. I had difficulty finding it but while looking I found some others you might like to look at. I don't know too much about any of them so if you do, please enlighten everyone. The first small razor is a Savigny & Co from the 1700's with shell scales. The other small razor is one of a seven day set. It also has shell scales. It's maker is LUER. The Hiram Gilbert/New York has blond horn scales and is a frameback. The CAST razor has ivory scales and is stubb tailed. It has an inscription on the scales: Mr Averlin Whittclayce. I hope i can upload these photos. Attachment 103168Attachment 103169Attachment 103170Attachment 103171Attachment 103172Attachment 103166Attachment 103167

Dude, you're making me contort my noggin in all sorts of goofy ways w/these pics!

My wife just looked at me like I was 'special' for having my laptop upside down and squinting at the screen.

Nice blades though!

:p

So sorry for the bad photography. I have to learn to do it properly.

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Originally Posted by 25609289

So sorry for the bad photography. I have to learn to do it properly.

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Photography ain't all that bad. Just have to figure out how to rotate the pics in your photo editor. LOL

You'll figure it out.

Those are some WAY COOL old razors!

Catchy username... Nice razors though!

Wow - it's rare that I look at 4 razors and... want them all lol! What sizes are they?

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Wow - it's rare that I look at 4 razors and... want them all lol! What sizes are they?

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Too big for you, Grasshopper.

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Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

Too big for you, Grasshopper.

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I don't know man, I don't think any of those are over 5/8 myself... some could even be 4/8's! But only 8765309 knows for sure.

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Originally Posted by earcutter

I don't know man, I don't think any of those are over 5/8 myself... some could even be 4/8's! But only 8765309 knows for sure.

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"Jenny, Jenny, who could I turn to?"

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Originally Posted by mapleleafalumnus

"Jenny, Jenny, who could I turn to?"

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Brother... lol, you don't miss a thing!! Good catch LOL! :)

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Brother... lol, you don't miss a thing!! Good catch LOL! :)

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"Thank you vera much."
-The KING
I'll be here all week. Please remember to tip your waitresses and beertenders.

The shell scaled razors are tiny. They are 3/8 and 1/2" and very short. If you look at the group photo you can get some perspective. The Hiram Gilbert razor is 5/8" and the CAST one varies from heel to toe.

Interesting! I'm certain that the Hiram Gilbert I have was manufactured by Joseph Elliot, but I've never seen an Elliot frameback. That looks more like a Wostenholm to me.

In the digging I did, the only New York-based Hiram Gilbert I could find was a farmer in the Upstate region. This Hiram Gilbert was almost certainly in New York City. I guess it's time to dig deeper!

I am lustful over the other razors too. The one stamped 'Cast' looks like it has a crown and something beneath that. I wonder if it's a transitional stamp from the Shepherd firm? (razors stamped {crown} Wolf).

Alrighty! I've dug up a likely suspect for our man, Hiram Gilbert.

North of Syracuse, NY, a bit East of Fulton, there's a region known as Six-Mile Creek. In 1819 Hiram Gilbert and his brother Andrus built a grist mill there. In 1821, Andrus built the first store in the town. It became known as Gilberts Mills. At some point between 1821 and 1863, there were two stores, two blacksmith shops, two shoe stores, a grist mill, a sawmill and a post office. Gilberts Mills was on the down slope of prosperity by 1868 thanks in large part to the Midland Railroad which had no stops there.

An older book I found, talking about the region, lists the chain of ownership of Gilberts Mills, which should help narrow down when these razors were made.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jOs...9%2C191&edge=0

That suggests that these razors date from 1833 to 1844, the time period when Hiram Gilbert owned the operation.

The newer history I found of the region treats the whole era as a shrouded mystery, so it would probably be news to local historians that there are Hiram Gilbert branded razors.

I'd be willing to bet money that these razors are from that Hiram Gilbert, though. Most likely made in Sheffield but it's not out of the question that they're simply very well-made lookalikes.

I am probably crazy, but the Hiram Gilbert seems to have laminated steel in the frameback and I thought maybe a Captain Gilbert had a razor made for himself in Japan. I wish Manah or Neil Miller or any other expert would take a look at the Savigny razor. Mr Savigny died before 1800. The CAST razor has an inscription on the scales: Mr Arvelin Whittclayce. He might have been the original owner.

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Alrighty! I've dug up a likely suspect for our man, Hiram Gilbert.

North of Syracuse, NY, a bit East of Fulton, there's a region known as Six-Mile Creek. In 1819 Hiram Gilbert and his brother Andrus built a grist mill there. In 1821, Andrus built the first store in the town. It became known as Gilberts Mills. At some point between 1821 and 1863, there were two stores, two blacksmith shops, two shoe stores, a grist mill, a sawmill and a post office. Gilberts Mills was on the down slope of prosperity by 1868 thanks in large part to the Midland Railroad which had no stops there.

An older book I found, talking about the region, lists the chain of ownership of Gilberts Mills, which should help narrow down when these razors were made.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jOs...9%2C191&edge=0

That suggests that these razors date from 1833 to 1844, the time period when Hiram Gilbert owned the operation.

The newer history I found of the region treats the whole era as a shrouded mystery, so it would probably be news to local historians that there are Hiram Gilbert branded razors.

I'd be willing to bet money that these razors are from that Hiram Gilbert, though. Most likely made in Sheffield but it's not out of the question that they're simply very well-made lookalikes.

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I posted a reply before looking at this post. You are on top of it man. Great detective work. Guess he was not a captain. It's a great shaver by the way.

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Originally Posted by 25609289

I am probably crazy, but the Hiram Gilbert seems to have laminated steel in the frameback and I thought maybe a Captain Gilbert had a razor made for himself in Japan. I wish Manah or Neil Miller or any other expert would take a look at the Savigny razor. Mr Savigny died before 1800. The CAST razor has an inscription on the scales: Mr Arvelin Whittclayce. He might have been the original owner.

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Wostenholm made a frameback-style razor with either actual Wootz pattern steel or a cunning etch to simulate the pattern. From your picture it looks to me like simple patina. I'll buy and eat a hat if the Gilbert razors we have weren't made in Sheffield.

I do hope Neil or Manah come along to answer questions about Savigny. All I can find is that he was a London cutler working in Pall Mall, though he did supposedly produce some steel from bar iron imported from North America in the 1760's.

Where did you get these razors? That might offer some clues.

I bought the Savigny and a matched pair of French shell scaled razors from an antique dealer. I got the Gilbert from ebay.

If we left these razors safely in the 1800's, wootz would have made a far more valuable blade than a frameback spine. Practicality would dictate not wasting a legendary material on furniture. As to the false damasceneing via etching...very possible. Pattern welding was a common practice in certain areas of metal working. A piece of old Holland and Holland gun barrel could have easily found it's way into a lot of different kinds of metal working.

As to the cast steels...it is not impossible to have a piece with grain or alloy banding show up. That would look very much like wootz or a laminate depending on the metal working techniques used. That a pattern would show up after some patina develops is not unusual since the etching done to bring out a pattern is merely accelerated oxidation. As long as one part of the mix, whether an alloy or harder crystalline formation, resists the etchant (rust), a pattern will become visible. There was a lot of cast steel being produced in Sheffield for use in cutlery, and used all over Europe and the world. It would take no leap at all to make that connection.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

If we left these razors safely in the 1800's, wootz would have made a far more valuable blade than a frameback spine. Practicality would dictate not wasting a legendary material on furniture. As to the false damasceneing via etching...very possible. Pattern welding was a common practice in certain areas of metal working. A piece of old Holland and Holland gun barrel could have easily found it's way into a lot of different kinds of metal working.

As to the cast steels...it is not impossible to have a piece with grain or alloy banding show up. That would look very much like wootz or a laminate depending on the metal working techniques used. That a pattern would show up after some patina develops is not unusual since the etching done to bring out a pattern is merely accelerated oxidation. As long as one part of the mix, whether an alloy or harder crystalline formation, resists the etchant (rust), a pattern will become visible. There was a lot of cast steel being produced in Sheffield for use in cutlery, and used all over Europe and the world. It would take no leap at all to make that connection.

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The Wostenholm frameback I'm thinking of went through eBay a while back and didn't have real clear pictures. A bit more refined searching just now turned up this thread where you offered up an excellent tip for using ferric chloride for doing your own etches -- and the blade there was definitely a photo etch.

(This is useful to me because one of my restore projects will require a nice, deep etch like that.)

I hope, it'll be interested to you.:)
Several notes and facts from the history of Savigny & Co., London.

Thanks very much. So my razor could have been made very early or much later.