Many of the old W&B black Scales are in tact, but faded out. Can they be dyed ?
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Many of the old W&B black Scales are in tact, but faded out. Can they be dyed ?
Hi Dave,
Pleased to meet you !!....You should contact Maggard Razors – Straight Razor Restoration, Custom Scales and Wet Shaving Products
Brad Maggard (forum name "Undream) in Adrian, Michigan.
He can tell you what you want to know.
My experience in knifemaking and restoration is that depending on the material, wood can be dyed,
and replacement (horn) materials are more than reasonable in terms of cost.
Keep in mind, that handles have been worn down over the years (decades ?) and that their true shape
has been lost.
What specifically is your intended project ?
best Wishes,
Peter
Old horn scales have been extensively dyed since the late 1700s at least. Horn was used to make a faux tortoiseshell - very many vintage razors have scales like this. I have examples of razors from around the 1850s that have had the horn bleached to almost transparent (aka 'blonde'), some which have had this treatment and then been dyed a gaudy red, some pink, some yellow. I have seen but not owned green examples. So yes - it can be done - if they could do it then, it can be done now.
Trouble is some of the old processes used fairly toxic chemicals. Horn mock tortoiseshell had a number of recipes, some of which included quicklime, litharge (lead) and lye, others used red lead and lye. To get black, the horn was first dyed green - using the liquid obtained by dissolving brass in nitric acid, then treating it with a decoction of logwood (a plant of the legume family). Red and green were obtained by first boiling the horn in alum water, then treating it variously with quicklime, ammonia, white wine vinegar, rainwater, brazil-wood, etc. Black was obtained by steeping the horn in silver nitrate (aka 'lunar caustic'). Undiluted it is indeed very caustic (it can remove warts!) but it is to be diluted so that it does not corrode the horn. After a thorough soaking it is taken into sunlight - the UV turns it deep black/brown. Also, anything the lunar caustic has touched will stain - as I know to my cost - fingers, hands, fingernails, furniture, towels, etc. And it takes months to come off your skin.
Other 'black' recipes called for the use of mercury salts and potassium nitrate - even more hazardous than lunar caustic. Some used red lead staining followed by washing in water and vinegar. This (Wagners Method) was a cheaper process, but after time white deposits (lead oxide - white lead) form on the horn. Thy can be polished away, but will always return.
All the processes that call for heat, or using logwood and gall decoctions that are heated make horn very brittle. I have seen red and yellow horn shatter like glass.
Aniline dyes were sometimes used - this type of dyeing does not penetrate very far into the horn, and still calls for the use of hydrochloric and sulphuric acid.
Other processes are simpler and call for the horn to be whitened (or made 'blonde' proper bleaching is a no-no - it is very injurious to the structure of the horn) followed by dyes such as anilines, tinctures, etc, like methyl violet. These are probably the least hazardous among the old recipes.
I suspect that the modern ways of dyeing horn use less hazardous materials.
Regards,
Neil
Thanks guys. I have several Sheffield and Solingen SR with black scales that are really faded out especially around the pins. Just wonder ed if it would be appropriate to dye black before selling them. A couple of yellowish horn scales that way as well. Seems that the yellow horn gets translucent,
If Black is the natural color,Might re-hydrating them with neatsfoot oil bring back the color??
Yes i might, really dry horn gets white.
Certainly worth a try - old horn gets a bit fibrous and 'wooly' in the top layer due to scuffs, abrasion, drying out, etc. This helps to scatter light and make the horn look much lighter. Lightly sanding it, buffing it with tripoli powder in oil (or going up to very fine grades of paper if you can't get tripoli) and letting a film of neats foot oil sit on the scales (or filling up a thin jar with neatsfoot, opening the blade and submerging the scales in the oil) will make it look darker, shinier and more like it did when first made into scales.
Regards,
Neil
I've had a few people who want the old dirty bone/horn scales replaced, after 15 min of micro-mesh and oil while talking to them they want to keep them.
It's a lovely material.
IN a Polishing kit there is a bar of compound for plastic. Should I try that before hydrating in neatsfoot ? It would clean up the material and remove any foreign substances while smoothing out the outer layer???????
I usually oil first, in hopes that I won't have to sand. But it may be easier to sand while its dry...
When I oil, I put on a light coat at a time. Submerging is faster, but I always worry scales will get too much oil and get mushy, or that they will warp.
I've been experimenting with using shoe polish to dye horn. I'm not ready to recommend it yet, but it's very promising.
Some horn that's been in especially bad shape I've painted with India ink and sealed with CA glue, and that works very well. But it requires the sealing or the ink washes off and you really don't want to finish shaving and have your hands stained.
Would be an improvement from stained with blood !
Wouldn't Shoe dye work better then polish ?
Possibly. If I get some free time over the weekend I'll give it a shot and post results.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
I went for polish because ... I had some of that in the house. I don't think the bottle of RIT is black, though... Easy enough to get and try, however!
+1 on this you can also finish the shine with light metal polish. makes them real shiny, and if the were black to begin with the will be black once again. If they were originally translucent and they are losing color you will need to redye- which i personally wouldn't recommend... I mean why mess with something thats 150 years old? You should only hope to look that good 100+ years from now! Or you can try my sac-religious method of taking the old ones off and making your self a nice pair of.... dare i say it..... new ones! Replicas, custom what ever!!! YMMV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Oh yeah, I regularly use Mothers or Maas on scales. I use it on metal. I use it on celluloid. I use it on acrylic and lucite and horn and bone and ivory and my own hands. It makes pretty much anything shinier. Anything but my hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLowett
I have this "Back to Black" stuff I bought when I had a Vintage Goldwing GL1200. It was a creamy color but when you rubbed it into the black plastic parts around the fairing it made the faded black darker and shinier. Maybe I'll give that a try as it is mild stuff. You all made me think of that with the metal polish which I also have. Thanks !
I might be wrong Zak, but I think Sharptonn uses it on his halo...? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmonster
Regards,
Neil
Watch out when using any colored polish like rouge and such, the horn/bone is porous and it's hard to clean it of.
I would also be careful with any petroleum based polish, get a crap piece of horn to test on first.
Why yes, Neil, I do! Quite an astute observation. I surely thought no one noticed! :angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Miller
Attachment 126464
I know this is a older thread but I have some black horn scales I am putting on a old Greaves very near wedge. I have been rubbing a very small amount of Fromm strop dressing every day for a week After a couple of hours I buff tha dressing off with a old T- shirt & it really looks pretty good. I also just started on a pre 1881 hollow ground W&B. I just rubbed the dressing into the scales for about ten minutes with my hands. I have nice & soft hands now& a good looking razor. I know pictures but my grand kids aren't here to help me
! I have also used car wax on all kinds of scales with great results.
Slawman
