Really in need of some coaching...

OK, guys, I really need some help here. I've been at this for more than six months now, and I can't seem to get a shave that's both close and comfortable. Both closeness and comfort have improved slowly, but basically every day I have some tenderness and itching, usually on my chin and neck.

Here are some things I'm relatively sure of:
- My honing doesn't seem to be the problem. I'm sure I'll continue to improve, but I'm confident that it's at least OK. I've tried razors by several senior members and had similar problems with all of these blades.
- My prep is fine. I can get very good results with my Gillette Superspeed and Personna blades--not the sharpest blades out there.
- My beard is thick and my skin is sensitive. I don't think my stubble is wirey, but I have pretty thick hair so my beard is... resilient might be the word. It took me about six weeks to conquer razor burn with my DE. Most guys seem to get the hang of it in two weeks or less.
- My equipment is good. I'm using a Tony Miller strop, Colleen's soap, and decent razors honed on a Norton 4/8K and finished on 1 micron and .5 micron balsa paddles.

I've really been trying to focus on my shaving technique, using a light touch. The trouble is that a light touch doesn't take the stubble off my chin, forcing me to use a lot of strokes and causing irritation. Using pressure just causes the irritation to get bad more quickly. Today it took me 40 minutes to shave and I ended up with lingering irritation that just made me cranky all day.

The only smooth, comfortable shave I've gotten is with a Feather AC kindly lent to me by another member. On the first day with the new blade, I got a beautiful, irritation free shave. On the second, I found I had to use a bit more pressure, and I ended up with irritation again.

Has anyone else had this much trouble? Any suggestions for me? Fire away with questions--I know I've left out a lot of details but I'm getting a little sleepy. :) I'm open to anything, even suggestions on the stuff I'm "sure" about.

Thanks,
Josh

Are you using a cutting angle, leading the shave stroke with the tip ahead of the heel? I find this very useful.

X

lead with the tip? I have to try that.

Josh,

There are only so many components to getting a good shave. Obviously, since your sure about all of the components it has to be one of the ones your sure about. First, it sounds to me like you really haven't found any blade method that works that well, but . . .

I would start with reevaluating your honing. You may be getting an edge a little too sharp with .5. Maybe try backing down to 8K alone. Again, as we have discussed I use many, many smoothing strokes vs pyramiding theories and have in only the last year produced superior shaving edge. My point is that even a few 4K striations left on the edge will tear the living sh*t out of sensitive skin.

On the other side of the coin consider moving to .25 paste and trying that too. You can possibly get the razor even sharper than you already are . . . it might help anyway. I assume though that your edge a pretty darn sharp by now, but probably not Feather sharp.

I will assume that your doing a proper job of removing grit paste from the edge as that is another contributor to the issue.

After this I will throw this idea out at you. I think stropping is bad. I mean at its very core its a bad thing to do. Consider shaving off the hone without stropping. If there is any improvement at all, go back and reevaluate your stropping. Chances are you may have attempted to get too much draw from the strop. At this point your technique is probably perfect but you can imagine that an over drawing strop would tear the edge a little. I'm really not convinced, at the hyper sharp levels we hone at that excessive strop draw is really a good thing. I think there may be some credence to the idea of just a light, smooth "burnishing" of the edge. I apply some kind of oil, a lot actually, to tame the draw on the strop. Its not a technique issue so much as the edge may be getting . . . whats a good word. . . bent a little from the last stroke you do on the strop. I think of it as a mini roll. At the very least use no pressure stropping for the last 4 strokes.

Finally, I would start wiping the egde on your hand after a pass and looking for whiskers . . . I bet they are there after only one pass. Consider just going with that one pass and leaving your face alone to dry and see if you can live with that shave. Then start evaluating, using only one stroke, which directional pass produces the best results. When your face is wet it feels like you have whiskers everywhere, when dry you'll feel a lot less. Before you do a second pass, if you choose to, rinse the blade. I know, that sounds like a pain, but you could be getting irritation from the whiskers on the blade and not the razors edge at all. Thus, always a good first stroke, and always irritation when doing multiple strokes.

Finally, check out the "How to shave" flyer in the help files. Its this little "flyer" from a long time ago. It suggests, if I remember correctly, that the prime reason guys get poor shaves (irritation wise) is because they use too great an angle and expect too much from the razor.

Ok, one more finally :) I'm going to put in one more plug for smoothing strokes on the edge. Add some with a dollop of pressure to smooth the bevel edge completely then light touches on the edge too. The key is to make an edge smoother than a DE blade. Much smoother.

OK, finally, finally, er .. ...finally. Consider your water may be too hot. Back down on that too. Sensitive skin is just that...and hot water makes it irritate up, and then you shave on it and you get into the pores. Try using nothing hotter than warm water. Even a touch over on the cooler side.

That should give you plenty to think about until the next post.

Alan,

Thanks for the suggestions. You've got me thinking here....

I recently did an experiment with another senior member where I had him hone up razors to differing levels of sharpness for me. (I'm not naming names because I don't want anyone to read this and start questioning someone else's honing. The problem is on my end; I'm very confident in the honing abilities of those who've helped me out.) The razors started at 8K and went up through chromium oxide level sharp, plus he threw in the Feather. So I've done a lot of experimenting at the lower end of the grit scale, and it does seem that higher grit works better for me. I can instantly tell the difference between an 8K edge and one that's finished on .5 micron pastes, and my face remembers all day, too. :)

I haven't yet tried .25 micron paste, but that might be a good next step. It seems that the sharper I can get the blade the less it irritates.

To answer X's question, yes, I do use the toe-leading stroke, and I find that it helps a lot.

The stropping thing is a possibility. I've always looked suspiciously at my stropping. I use very light pressure and do about 40-60 laps prior to the shave, followed by 10-15 at a couple of points during the shave. My blades seem to get sharper after a few shaves, which I interpret as the edge being smoothed out and refined.

I do wipe the blade rather than rinsing, but I use a towel. There are definitely whiskers in the lather after I do a stroke, so I know I'm shaving stuff off. :)

The one thing that's really jumping out to me right now is what you said about doing strokes in different directions and seeing which removes the most. Especially on my chin I end up doing a million little strokes just to get it cleaned off to a minimal degree. That's why it takes me so long to shave: I spend about 15-20 minutes on the first pass, refreshing the lather several times on the places I haven't hit yet.

The other thing I'm thinking is that maybe my skin just needs a break. I've had some level of irritation every day for weeks. I might take a few days with the DE to let things heal. At very least I'll quit trying so hard with the straight, maybe just do a WTG and XTG pass and live with the stubble for a while.

Please keep the suggestions coming. I need fresh ideas on how to tackle this. :)

Thanks,
Josh

There's also 0.1 micron paste available, I don't have the link handy but it was discussed on SRP sometime in the last few months.

How did the feather work for you? I'm not a big fan of the feather, but you might want to let your face rest for awhile then give the feather a serious shot.

Is it possible that the sharper Feather on the 1st day gave the best shave because it is sharper than any straight?

If for anything else except Feather on its first day you need pressure - I would venture the angle is off and / or you have really, and I mean REALLY, tough beard.

Are you sure your lather is good? The equipment doesn't matter if the lather is too dry (and it will be - in 40 min!), etc. BTW sometimes I get irritation from just applying lather (- because my skin does not tolerate the soap). However mild the soap is - having it on the face for so long can be the real problem

Maybe you can make a video and post for the experts here?

Best of luck
Ivo

tedpella, that's the place with the 0.1 micron diamond. If you want to try it you'll want a really hard razor, like a TI or Wonderedge or Sta-Sharp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

tedpella, that's the place with the 0.1 micron diamond. If you want to try it you'll want a really hard razor, like a TI or Wonderedge or Sta-Sharp.

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Can't a more expensive razor be used? like... I don't know what actually :roflmao

just kidding on Michael's recommended selection - not too cheap

Ivo

How about a Friodur? I have one of those...

Of course, if it would *only* cost me $479 for a lifetime of good shaves, wouldn't that be worth it? :)

Josh

Sorry, forgot about the Maestro Livi/Takeda razors, and the Robert Williams razors. Both of them are very very hard as well (going by the L/T's rep, no direct experience).

Maybe the Dovo Bergischer Lowe? I've heard that one uses very hard steel. And some of the old Swedish framebacks are also hone-mockingly hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Sorry, forgot about the Maestro Livi/Takeda razors, and the Robert Williams razors

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Michael the Merciless, we should call you

Come on, tell Josh he *can* use the Fruidur - in a pinch :roflmao

Cheers
Ivo

Josh,

Yea thats probably it. I only do four or five strokes, in general, around the face. Thats probably a lot of the issue.

The more I thought about it today, on the commute in (how wierd is this hobby that I think about how you shave?) I think you should explore angle too. I'm still curious how the shave goes clean off the hone with no stropping. I don't think I clarified that this would be kind of like an experiment . . . that might get you more interested... LOL... anyway its a thought. I often strop with significant pressure, get smoothed out and then go with a light touch. But I find a light touch alone works fine for me too, so I"m not any real help here I suppose.

For the most part I only go XTG on the chin.

The Feather on day one was amazing. I got a very clean shave with no irritation whatsoever. I was even able to go against the grain under my chin, which is something that brings tears to my eyes with every other straight I've tried to this point.

Day two wasn't as good. I felt like I had to use some pressure; day one I was just trying to keep the weight of the thing off my face as much as possible. Maybe I wasn't as afraid of it the second time around. Whatever the reason, I had some low-level irritation. I'm planning to try it again soon, and I suspect it'll be slightly worse each time...

I have a hard time imagining that my beard is that hard to shave. After all, I do very well with low-end DE blades. I think it has to be some combination of pressure, angle, the direction of the strokes and the number of strokes.

Alan, I have shaved right off the hone or pasted strop a number of times, and it works OK but stropping does seem to improve it.

Tomorrow I'm going back to the DE to give my poor skin a break. :)

Thanks, and keep it coming,
Josh

If your truly positive about the razor and prep and all that then you described the problem and solution to yourself already. Its technique. I don't think the stropping idea is a good one. Stropping is the key to good shaving and has been for hundreds of years. I think to eliminate that is just not a good idea. Its one of the few factors in straight shaving that is written in stone.

I would be concentrating on your angle that you hold the blade. It might be too aggressive hence a rough shave. Really look at how your holding the razor as you shave. I find if I'm not paying attention I have a tendency to increase the angle as I shave.

Also I find when I do my chin I come straight down and around in one stroke. If you razor can't do that smoothly its a sign its not sharp enough. Also if you have to strop inbetween shaves thats saying to me maybe the razor isn't quite there and it either marginal to begin with and its failing during the shave.

For me the ultimate test if whether the razor is truly shave ready is when I get to my chin. It might shave my face fine but when I bring it down around my chin, if it starts to slow down or pull or balk I know it ain't ready.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xman

Are you using a cutting angle, leading the shave stroke with the tip ahead of the heel? I find this very useful.

X

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I want to underscore this. Lately, and particularly on my upper lip and chin, this cutting angle has been such an asset. It helps me get a smooth cut in the areas of my face where the hair is the most dense.

If you haven't tried it yet, I would recommend doing so next time you use a straight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Alan, I have shaved right off the hone or pasted strop a number of times, and it works OK but stropping does seem to improve it.


Josh

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Cool, then that, with the fact that your edges get better with stropping iterations is proof that your problem isn't in the stropping.

I knew someone was going to scan through that post and assume I thought you should stop stropping altogether.

Be careful though with tip leading strokes on protrusions like the chin.

I agree with Bigspendur, time to reevaluate honing. How do the DEs look in the microscope thats different than your honend edges?

I would suspect that if your holding the handle of a DE away from your face when shaving that your using too steep an angle when using a straight (for your face).

Hey, I've had an epiphany! Woo Hoo. Ya know both the Feather straight and a DE have one thing in common. Pressure against the face. If you use pressure with a Feather, you remove your face and a DE has a blade guard. Maybe you need to simply work on skin stretching and moving the blade lightly into the whiskers without pressing into the skin so much.

Whatcha think of that?

My DE shave this morning went pretty well. I know that it's pretty different from shaving with a straight, but I find the knowledge transfers well back and forth between the two tools.

Today I found myself lightening up on the pressure and reducing the cutting angle even more than I have in the past. My recent experiments with the Feather and regular straights have taught me what too much pressure and bad blade angles feel like. :)

I got a near-BBS shave in most places, even though I wasn't pushing since the whole point here is to let my skin heal up. My face feels much better today, maybe 95 percent healed. A couple more days and I'll be good as new. I'm hoping that this is part of my problem.

I'm going to pay very close attention to how I shave my chin with the DE. Today I was a little rushed, but I did notice that I kind of "chip away" at the stubble. I start under my lip and work my way down in 1/2 inch strokes. After the first pass, I still have tons of stubble left--almost like I didn't shave. Then I relather and redo the WTG pass, maybe even a couple of times. Each time I work my way further into the stubble on the point of my chin and just underneath it, which is the really bothersome stuff. It's like the way you'd clear a forest with a machete--hack a little deeper each time.

If I can improve on this to where I'm able to just do smooth strokes with the DE, maybe I'll be able to transfer that into my straight technique. I suspect different/better skin stretching and more attention to the grain will help.

Bigspendur, I understand what you're saying about sharpness and doing one smooth stroke on the chin, but I have never been able to do that--not with my razors, not with the Feather, not with a DE, not with honemeister razors.

Thanks for all the suggestions--I'm digesting it all here.

Josh

Josh

Just a thought...

I always shave after I've showered. Somewhere I read that someone put hair conditioner on their beard in the shower after washing it with normal soap. I tried it with my wife's moisturing conditioner and it worked a treat, making the hair much softer (duh, that's what its supposed to do :)).

I then lather and shave as usual...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savage

Josh

Just a thought...

I always shave after I've showered. Somewhere I read that someone put hair conditioner on their beard in the shower after washing it with normal soap. I tried it with my wife's moisturing conditioner and it worked a treat, making the hair much softer (duh, that's what its supposed to do :)).

I then lather and shave as usual...

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Yup- I do that every now and again. It does make the beard feel softer. It is really noticable if you haven't shaved in a few days and the wiskers are longer.

But not all conditioners work - check out Kyle's explanation at B&B. Some actually strengthen the hair, making it harder to cut

Cheers
Ivo

My God, we do analyze this stuff don't we? :)

To death. :)

The showering before the shave and conditioner suggestions are good ones; I've done both at various times but found that neither works better than what I do now, which is just splashing my face with water every minute or so while I brush my teeth, strop, and make my lather. That gives the water five minutes or so to soak in. Then I lather on my face for a couple of minutes.

I might give up on the DE thing and go back to the straight, though, because I'm a little out of practice with it. The whole point is to let my skin rest, but the DE feels a little harsher than the straight. I might just do a one-pass shave for a couple of days until I can't feel any residual soreness.

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

... the DE feels a little harsher than the straight...

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Exactly! I am always surprised when people say "I'll switch to DE for several days to give my face a break." If you can do it - more power to you, but I think this is only possible if you are very proficient with a DE and just starting with the straights. You aren't just starting, so I was very interested to see your results when I read you are going to the DE

In my experience, properly honed, stropped and used straights are much easier on the skin. This is why I switched to them... (well, not the only reason but a big reason - how can I leave out the fascinating mix of beauty and inherent danger associated with them - beats a DE hands down any day)

Cheers
Ivo

Ivo,

Thanks for letting me come to that conclusion on my own. :)

The DE thing might be working; I'm still not sure. The funny thing is that it's harsher on my skin but in different places than the straight. My neck and chin get irritated by the straight, but with my DE it's my cheeks that usually complain.

Today my face was burning in the shower, but now I'm not feeling the lingering irritation that I've been getting from my straights.

I am leaning toward going back to the straight tomorrow, though. It's very addictive...

Or maybe I'll just get out the old Mach 3 to give my face a break. :D

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Ivo,

Thanks for letting me come to that conclusion on my own. :)

The DE thing might be working; I'm still not sure. The funny thing is that it's harsher on my skin but in different places than the straight. My neck and chin get irritated by the straight, but with my DE it's my cheeks that usually complain.

Today my face was burning in the shower, but now I'm not feeling the lingering irritation that I've been getting from my straights.

I am leaning toward going back to the straight tomorrow, though. It's very addictive...

Or maybe I'll just get out the old Mach 3 to give my face a break. :D

Josh

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Come on now, Josh - you wouldn't have listened to me to begin with (yes, admit it) AND it IS better to experiment for YOUR skin and skills anyway :D For all I knew you might have been a DE Jedi

Also, I don't think I'm such an expert so sometimes I tend to keep quiet. But I would certainly warn you about the Mach 3 (even though some people get great results with it too) - it's just not cool

Irritation in different places (DE vs Straight): easy peasy to explain - different angles (facilitated by different form factor, shorter blade, etc.) and on the easy plains you might inadvertently be a bit careless, use more pressure or more passes to get BBS but without sufficient lubrication, etc.

Yes, addiction is inevitable

Cheers
Ivo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

Exactly! I am always surprised when people say "I'll switch to DE for several days to give my face a break." If you can do it - more power to you, but I think this is only possible if you are very proficient with a DE and just starting with the straights. You aren't just starting, so I was very interested to see your results when I read you are going to the DE

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Yeah, I thought the same thing. I took my DE with me over Christmas and couldn't wait to get back to my straights, and I am (or more likely *was*) very proficient with the DE. But the straight is just easier on my skin. If I wanna let my face take a break I just lower my standards for a few days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

I would certainly warn you about the Mach 3 (even though some people get great results with it too) - it's just not cool

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The Mach 3 is totally not cool. I hate it so much I haven't even looked at it since last August. :)

I think you're right about the different types of irritation thing, especially when it comes to my cheeks. I tend to go a bit more quickly there. The only thing I don't get is why I seem to be able to do a lot of strokes on my chin with my DE but the straight causes irritation. With the DE I probably do the equivalent of three or four WTG passes there, plus an ATG pass. :shrug: If I can figure out the difference I think it'll solve all my problems.

I'm feeling a strong urge to hone something, so I'm pretty sure my resolve will break tomorrow and I'll be grabbing a straight. :)

Josh

Lots of post to this question I hope it helps. This may to. I found Poraso Pre/Post helps the face heal. If your razor is sharp, it sounds like you should pay attention to your beard growth. It may take a few shaves but find out which direction the razor cuts the beard best. Then find out which angle of the razor cuts the beard with the greatest amount of comfort. Don't go for the gold all at one time. Go with a less than perfect shave so you don't kill your face until your technique is down.

I have a tough beard and sensitive skin, so my prep is important to a good shave.

Conditioner in the shower, you also may want to try a preshave. Two that I know work is Trufit & Hill Preshave Oil and Taylors of Old Bond, Preshave Gel. The Taylors is exceptional.

Let the products do they're job and soften your beard. I would start with a flat razor, and come up in angle a little at a time until you hit the sweet spot.

Go back to the basics, and go slow,

Also the trumpers skin food works good as a pre shave conditioner.

Lately, I've been trying to rotate to one DE shave a week, just for fun. I do find that using my Gillette fatboy does cause more irritation than a straight. Nothing tremendous but I can feel the difference afterwards and I used a DE way before I started using a straight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Especially on my chin I end up doing a million little strokes just to get it cleaned off to a minimal degree. That's why it takes me so long to shave: I spend about 15-20 minutes on the first pass, refreshing the lather several times on the places I haven't hit yet.

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Would this be part of the problem? I find a few long strokes work better than many short ones.

If you get better results with a feather: feathers are by some considered to be sharper than even well honed str8s. Your 1st feather shave was better than the second, did you use the same blade again? The second time it must have been less sharp.

The other thing is: feathers are made of stainless steel. Stainless razors have a different feel to carbon steel. Have you ever used SS straights?

Just my thoughts.

Well, in pondering all this advice I got to thinking about how well the Feather worked for me and how light it felt on my face. I had an epiphany: Sharpness isn't the only way the Feather AC differed from the other straights I've been using.

The Feather is also heavier and stiffer than the 5/8 and 6/8 full-hollows I've been using.

Now I've never been on the monster razor bandwagon--I leave that to the original Josh. I love my 4/8s and 5/8s, and the bigger wedges and quarter hollows had given me razor burn in the past.

But now that my honing has improved and I'm learning to use less pressure, I started to wonder whether a bigger, heavier blade wouldn't help me remember to lighten up on the pressure and mind my angles.

I honed up a chunky 6/8 Sheffield quarter hollow, and lo and behold, this thing handles my chin much, much better. For the last two days I've had almost no irritation, and that's while refining the freshly honed edge. I'm finally getting that "hot-knife-through-butter" sensation on my chin. :y

My theory right now is that the extra weight of the blade helps stabilize the razor when it hits heavy resistance around my chin. The weight also helps me remember not to bear down--I'm actually trying to hold the razor off my face. And the big goofy spine helps me see if my angles are off. It's like the large print edition. :D

The jury's still out on this, as I'm only on day two with this razor. I'd hate to give up my smaller blades, but I am starting to get a hankering for a nice 12/8 ...

Maybe someday my technique will improve and I'll be able to go back to the smaller razors. :shrug:

Thanks everyone for the suggestions--I'll let you know how this turns out.

Josh

Good for you, Josh!

Yes, heavier blades have more momentum and thus stability like you describe.

The only thing that surprised me reading your post is the comment on the angle. If anything, I have heard people complain the big wedges make it harder to see the right angle.

One interestind tid-bit: the Original Josh uses a very different angle when shaving with the big 'uns - check his avatar photo or the thread w/ the razor from Bill Ellis - it is much, and I mean MUCH bigger than 30 degrees. I asked him and he said this is his angle for bigger blades, and also that it gives him comfortable, irritation free shaves. Bastard...

JUST KIDDING - all the best to Josh! And all members in general :)

Cheers
Ivo

Ivo,

I hadn't heard that about big blades. I guess I could see that at the extreme end with like 8/8s and stuff--the spine would be really far away from your face, and that might make it harder to judge.

For me it's the width of the spine that helps. It's easier for me to figure out two spine widths when the spine is like a piece of rebar--1/4 thick rather than 1/8 or less on my smaller blades. :)

I'll have to play around with the angles and see what happens. I'm not sure I want to try Josh's Gillotine Stroke yet, though...

I forgot to mention that one other thing that seems to be helping on my chin is--get this--less skin stretching. I think the extreme stretching I was doing there by making faces was making all the hairs stand up, and that's just too much resistence for the razor to handle. Doing some mild stretching and a couple of WTG strokes seems to be working better. :shrug:

Oh, yeah, and doing a second WTG pass with just water and the residue from my lather. Lets me see spots where I didn't do a good job with the initial WTG pass.

(To all newbies who just read this, please look directly at the flashing light.... It will erase all memory of the last 30 seconds....)

The "rules" weren't working for me, so I'm trying some weird stuff. Next up, rolling the razor on the edge while stropping...

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

Next up, rolling the razor on the edge while stropping...

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I do roll through the edge when honing now - seems to work better for me. Haven't ruined an edge so far... Bill Ellis does it too - his rationale was that when he goes fast, he can cut himself rollind over the spine and using the other hand too quickly to guide / help the blade move along the hone. And he'd rather fix the edge (if he ever needs to) than have cuts.

I DO NOT SAY THIS IS BETTER - just sharing what I do and giving a more credible example

Cheers
Ivo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshEarl

I forgot to mention that one other thing that seems to be helping on my chin is--get this--less skin stretching. I think the extreme stretching I was doing there by making faces was making all the hairs stand up, and that's just too much resistence for the razor to handle. Doing some mild stretching and a couple of WTG strokes seems to be working better. :shrug:

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Hey Josh,

I also have been trying less skin stretching on my chin and especially underneath my chin(along with a lighter touch) and noticed that the irritation isn't as great.

Who knows, maybe you're on to something :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

I do roll through the edge when honing now - seems to work better for me.

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Same here when I'm using the bench hones, though I still roll on the spine when using the barber hones. Usual disclaimer for newbies: "Do as we say, not as we do."

You guys are losing it...LOL....:)