Thread: Really in need of some coaching...

OK, guys, I really need some help here. I've been at this for more than six months now, and I can't seem to get a shave that's both close and comfortable. Both closeness and comfort have improved slowly, but basically every day I have some tenderness and itching, usually on my chin and neck.

Here are some things I'm relatively sure of:
- My honing doesn't seem to be the problem. I'm sure I'll continue to improve, but I'm confident that it's at least OK. I've tried razors by several senior members and had similar problems with all of these blades.
- My prep is fine. I can get very good results with my Gillette Superspeed and Personna blades--not the sharpest blades out there.
- My beard is thick and my skin is sensitive. I don't think my stubble is wirey, but I have pretty thick hair so my beard is... resilient might be the word. It took me about six weeks to conquer razor burn with my DE. Most guys seem to get the hang of it in two weeks or less.
- My equipment is good. I'm using a Tony Miller strop, Colleen's soap, and decent razors honed on a Norton 4/8K and finished on 1 micron and .5 micron balsa paddles.

I've really been trying to focus on my shaving technique, using a light touch. The trouble is that a light touch doesn't take the stubble off my chin, forcing me to use a lot of strokes and causing irritation. Using pressure just causes the irritation to get bad more quickly. Today it took me 40 minutes to shave and I ended up with lingering irritation that just made me cranky all day.

The only smooth, comfortable shave I've gotten is with a Feather AC kindly lent to me by another member. On the first day with the new blade, I got a beautiful, irritation free shave. On the second, I found I had to use a bit more pressure, and I ended up with irritation again.

Has anyone else had this much trouble? Any suggestions for me? Fire away with questions--I know I've left out a lot of details but I'm getting a little sleepy. I'm open to anything, even suggestions on the stuff I'm "sure" about.

Thanks,
Josh

Are you using a cutting angle, leading the shave stroke with the tip ahead of the heel? I find this very useful.

X

lead with the tip? I have to try that.

Josh,

There are only so many components to getting a good shave. Obviously, since your sure about all of the components it has to be one of the ones your sure about. First, it sounds to me like you really haven't found any blade method that works that well, but . . .

I would start with reevaluating your honing. You may be getting an edge a little too sharp with .5. Maybe try backing down to 8K alone. Again, as we have discussed I use many, many smoothing strokes vs pyramiding theories and have in only the last year produced superior shaving edge. My point is that even a few 4K striations left on the edge will tear the living sh*t out of sensitive skin.

On the other side of the coin consider moving to .25 paste and trying that too. You can possibly get the razor even sharper than you already are . . . it might help anyway. I assume though that your edge a pretty darn sharp by now, but probably not Feather sharp.

I will assume that your doing a proper job of removing grit paste from the edge as that is another contributor to the issue.

After this I will throw this idea out at you. I think stropping is bad. I mean at its very core its a bad thing to do. Consider shaving off the hone without stropping. If there is any improvement at all, go back and reevaluate your stropping. Chances are you may have attempted to get too much draw from the strop. At this point your technique is probably perfect but you can imagine that an over drawing strop would tear the edge a little. I'm really not convinced, at the hyper sharp levels we hone at that excessive strop draw is really a good thing. I think there may be some credence to the idea of just a light, smooth "burnishing" of the edge. I apply some kind of oil, a lot actually, to tame the draw on the strop. Its not a technique issue so much as the edge may be getting . . . whats a good word. . . bent a little from the last stroke you do on the strop. I think of it as a mini roll. At the very least use no pressure stropping for the last 4 strokes.

Finally, I would start wiping the egde on your hand after a pass and looking for whiskers . . . I bet they are there after only one pass. Consider just going with that one pass and leaving your face alone to dry and see if you can live with that shave. Then start evaluating, using only one stroke, which directional pass produces the best results. When your face is wet it feels like you have whiskers everywhere, when dry you'll feel a lot less. Before you do a second pass, if you choose to, rinse the blade. I know, that sounds like a pain, but you could be getting irritation from the whiskers on the blade and not the razors edge at all. Thus, always a good first stroke, and always irritation when doing multiple strokes.

Finally, check out the "How to shave" flyer in the help files. Its this little "flyer" from a long time ago. It suggests, if I remember correctly, that the prime reason guys get poor shaves (irritation wise) is because they use too great an angle and expect too much from the razor.

Ok, one more finally I'm going to put in one more plug for smoothing strokes on the edge. Add some with a dollop of pressure to smooth the bevel edge completely then light touches on the edge too. The key is to make an edge smoother than a DE blade. Much smoother.

OK, finally, finally, er .. ...finally. Consider your water may be too hot. Back down on that too. Sensitive skin is just that...and hot water makes it irritate up, and then you shave on it and you get into the pores. Try using nothing hotter than warm water. Even a touch over on the cooler side.

That should give you plenty to think about until the next post.

Alan,

Thanks for the suggestions. You've got me thinking here....

I recently did an experiment with another senior member where I had him hone up razors to differing levels of sharpness for me. (I'm not naming names because I don't want anyone to read this and start questioning someone else's honing. The problem is on my end; I'm very confident in the honing abilities of those who've helped me out.) The razors started at 8K and went up through chromium oxide level sharp, plus he threw in the Feather. So I've done a lot of experimenting at the lower end of the grit scale, and it does seem that higher grit works better for me. I can instantly tell the difference between an 8K edge and one that's finished on .5 micron pastes, and my face remembers all day, too.

I haven't yet tried .25 micron paste, but that might be a good next step. It seems that the sharper I can get the blade the less it irritates.

To answer X's question, yes, I do use the toe-leading stroke, and I find that it helps a lot.

The stropping thing is a possibility. I've always looked suspiciously at my stropping. I use very light pressure and do about 40-60 laps prior to the shave, followed by 10-15 at a couple of points during the shave. My blades seem to get sharper after a few shaves, which I interpret as the edge being smoothed out and refined.

I do wipe the blade rather than rinsing, but I use a towel. There are definitely whiskers in the lather after I do a stroke, so I know I'm shaving stuff off.

The one thing that's really jumping out to me right now is what you said about doing strokes in different directions and seeing which removes the most. Especially on my chin I end up doing a million little strokes just to get it cleaned off to a minimal degree. That's why it takes me so long to shave: I spend about 15-20 minutes on the first pass, refreshing the lather several times on the places I haven't hit yet.

The other thing I'm thinking is that maybe my skin just needs a break. I've had some level of irritation every day for weeks. I might take a few days with the DE to let things heal. At very least I'll quit trying so hard with the straight, maybe just do a WTG and XTG pass and live with the stubble for a while.

Please keep the suggestions coming. I need fresh ideas on how to tackle this.

Thanks,
Josh

There's also 0.1 micron paste available, I don't have the link handy but it was discussed on SRP sometime in the last few months.

How did the feather work for you? I'm not a big fan of the feather, but you might want to let your face rest for awhile then give the feather a serious shot.

Is it possible that the sharper Feather on the 1st day gave the best shave because it is sharper than any straight?

If for anything else except Feather on its first day you need pressure - I would venture the angle is off and / or you have really, and I mean REALLY, tough beard.

Are you sure your lather is good? The equipment doesn't matter if the lather is too dry (and it will be - in 40 min!), etc. BTW sometimes I get irritation from just applying lather (- because my skin does not tolerate the soap). However mild the soap is - having it on the face for so long can be the real problem

Maybe you can make a video and post for the experts here?

Best of luck
Ivo

tedpella, that's the place with the 0.1 micron diamond. If you want to try it you'll want a really hard razor, like a TI or Wonderedge or Sta-Sharp.

Originally Posted by mparker762

tedpella, that's the place with the 0.1 micron diamond. If you want to try it you'll want a really hard razor, like a TI or Wonderedge or Sta-Sharp.

Can't a more expensive razor be used? like... I don't know what actually

just kidding on Michael's recommended selection - not too cheap

Ivo

How about a Friodur? I have one of those...

Of course, if it would *only* cost me $479 for a lifetime of good shaves, wouldn't that be worth it?

Josh