How sharp is sharp enough? What let's you know when a refresh or honing is needed?

Well let me put in my bit. To the basic question about sharpness. The only true test is a shave test. It has to be comfortable and the razor needs to cut the hair with no pressure to the skin.

You are talking about 100 stokes on the leather strop and then some with powders.

That's way to much IMHO.

The easiest way to ruin a edge is by making a error in stropping.

I only use 10 strokes on the black DOVO paste and then 20 on leather.

That keeps my blades really sharp for comfortable shaves about 10 shaves. Then I give the blade a touchup 15 strokes or so on my coticule, followed by stopping. That keeps the edge sharp infinitely.

Less is more. And take it slowly and then reduce speed. You don't want to strop as fast as and old barber. It comes only after years practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack0458

I'm a novice shaver. Is the following true? I may need to use a stone (I have 8k and 16k) after 10 shaves if my stropping skill is not as good as it will be in the future. As my stropping skill improves I'll need to use the stones less often. Does this sound accurate?

---

I would modify your statement to read 'if my stropping and shaving skills are not as good as they will be in the future.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I agree. If you have to go to the stones after 10 shaves… something is wrong.

How were they honed? How were they maintained?

The problem is novice shavers will read your post and think this is normal… it I not… something is wrong.

---

What does it matter if they were all honed the same and maintained the same? I hone them all myself, I concider myself a rather advanced honer (I honed aprox 100 razors on top of my own, the progression is 1k-5k-8k-10k naniwa and Crox) and also the main point should be that I am satisfied with my edges right after the honning. Just my observation that some razors hold better edges than others.

in my opinion, its no problem if you hit crox or finishing stone after 10 shaves. Maybe you dont like it as sharp as I do, maybe your beard is not as strong as mine.

It does not matter, if you are happy with your edges and your maintenance schedule, but it is not normal, a razor that is properly maintained should hold an edge longer than 10 shaves. That it is happening with different razors eliminates the razors as the issue.

The problem with learning to maintain a razor is that proper stropping takes some time to learn. One miss-stroke can damage or completely wipe an edge, then many laps on linen/ leather or a pasted strop may revive it, if not then yes it will have to go back to the stones. The grit is determined by the damage.

Proper stropping on linen and leather can keep a properly honed razor shaving for months, a pasted strop… indefinitely.

How the razor was honed, the type and grit of stone and the honer’s experience, amount of pressure and number of laps, can affect the durability of the edge.

For example using a 1k Diamond plate or a low grit (sub 1K) hone with excessive pressure may cause a crumbling edge down the road. It may shave well for a while, but then the edge begins to crumble with microchips.

This often is caused by the deep stria caused by the aggressive honing during bevel setting.

So no it is not normal.

If stropping is an issue for you… learn to strop, find a mentor, have someone watch and coach you. Slow down, keep the spine on the strop at all times, stop then flip. Also use a good quality strop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

If stropping is an issue for you… learn to strop, find a mentor, have someone watch and coach you. Slow down, keep the spine on the strop at all times, stop then flip. Also use a good quality strop.

---

I love the blue sentence. The reason is slowing down is where I fall short when learning something that requires repetition with accuracy. I just speed up without thinking about it. I think it's impatience. I think I've seen too many videos of how to strop and the guy doesn't show you much. He just starts stropping at lightening speed. I have to remember I'm just starting and he has probably been doing this for a month or more. :) Kidding. Going slow is key. Why move fast when the moving is not accurate? I have to force myself to go slow, making every motion as accurate as I can. The speed will come all by itself. When it does come you will be accurate. I learned this philosephy when learning to play guitar many years ago. When the muscle memory kicks in we want to be making accurate movements.

I'd like to thank all of those who have helped me with advice. Your help is helping. My stropping is becoming more comfortable and the edges on my razors are getting better. Stropping just enough to keep a razor shave ready is not enough "practice" to become skilled IMO. Therefore I'm using one of my two razors to practice with. I have two razors. The other one I shave with. The one I practice with if I mess it up I have to fix it. That razor has been honed by a pro and the bevels are set. During this practice I don't have enough face to test my results by shaving. So, I try to cut arm hairs above the skin. When I don't have any more arm hair to speak of I am cutting hanging hairs. I have to be able to test the edge and these are the only way I know to do it. It's slow going but at least I'm going in a positive direction. Thanks guys.

Jack, if the hair test works for you, use it.

But hair cannot test the whole edge. Looking at it is the simplest and quickest way to test the whole edge and as I suspect with Samir’s razors, the edge can have issues that a hair test, cannot tell you exist. TPT, also is a quick, non-destructive test, but takes time to calibrate your thumb to recognize a fully set edge.

Here is the problem with the hair test. You test the edge touching the hair… and it does not pop the hair, so you touch the hair with the edge again and now it pops. Why did it not pop the first time?

Could it be the bevels were not meeting at that particular point? And when you re-test you are testing a different point on the edge?
Looking at the edge, as shown in post 29, will tell you if the whole bevel is set and remove all doubt. You will also see micro-chipping, that can be indicators the edge may fail on you down the road. Knowing you have a problem at bevel setting can save you a lot of time and frustration.

There are many post of novice honers spending hours setting a bevel. There is no need for that.

Learning to strop, just takes time, it’s just developing muscle memory without using too much downward pressure and rolling the edge. Until you develop the memory, it will require 100 percent of your attention. In-attention will cut your strop and ruin the edge.

Holding the tang on the two opposing corners with the thumb and forefinger and applying just enough torque to keep the edge on the strop, will keep you from applying too much down force and require less strop tension. It will also make flipping easier. Stop, then flip.
The spine should never leave the strop.

Set yourself up for success, make your life easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Jack, if the hair test works for you, use it.

But hair cannot test the whole edge. Looking at it is the simplest and quickest way to test the whole edge and as I suspect with Samir’s razors, the edge can have issues that a hair test, cannot tell you exist. TPT, also is a quick, non-destructive test, but takes time to calibrate your thumb to recognize a fully set edge.

Here is the problem with the hair test. You test the edge touching the hair… and it does not pop the hair, so you touch the hair with the edge again and now it pops. Why did it not pop the first time?

Could it be the bevels were not meeting at that particular point? And when you re-test you are testing a different point on the edge?
Looking at the edge, as shown in post 29, will tell you if the whole bevel is set and remove all doubt. You will also see micro-chipping, that can be indicators the edge may fail on you down the road. Knowing you have a problem at bevel setting can save you a lot of time and frustration.

There are many post of novice honers spending hours setting a bevel. There is no need for that.

Learning to strop, just takes time, it’s just developing muscle memory without using too much downward pressure and rolling the edge. Until you develop the memory, it will require 100 percent of your attention. In-attention will cut your strop and ruin the edge.

Holding the tang on the two opposing corners with the thumb and forefinger and applying just enough torque to keep the edge on the strop, will keep you from applying too much down force and require less strop tension. It will also make flipping easier. Stop, then flip.
The spine should never leave the strop.

Set yourself up for success, make your life easier.

---

I have seen it where the hair won't cut then it pops off in about the same spot on the edge. I have wondered why that was. Now I'll pay more attention to that and I can see if there was a deformity on the edge it would be obvious when shaving and not when cutting individual hairs. Another thing about the hair cutting is the barbs on hairs. They are like fish scales (how I picture them) and trying to cut the hair by sliding the edge under a scale is much easier than sliding the edge along the top of the barbs trying to cut in the opposite direction. So which direction on the hair I'm cutting makes a huge difference. I have to cut the hair with the edge cutting toward the root.

About holding the tang and the opposite corners. I knew exactly what you meant when I read that. Here are pictures of how I'm trying to hold and rotate my razor when stropping. It seems to work perfectly for a few passes but then my thumb and/or finger start getting out of position. I have to stop and reposition my thumb and finger on the tang like in the first picture.

First I grab the tang like this which represents the middle of a flip.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps230b683c.jpg

When I flip the blade edge toward me I'm holding it like this. My thumb is almost under the tang and my finger is on the opposite corner.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/y...psc1a5bde9.jpg

Then I flip it over and my thumb is almost on top. During a stroke it's the side of my thumb that is on the corner of the tang and my finger is on the opposite corner.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/y...psce057dc0.jpg

As I said this feels good but the razor slides a little during stropping so I need to reposition my "grip". I've been assuming I would develope a more consistent grip or feel when stropping. Does this look ok or do you have any suggestions on another way to flip the razor?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jack0458

Does this look ok or do you have any suggestions on another way to flip the razor?

---

In the bottom photo>When I flip and the razor is moving toward me, my thumb is on the far side of the tang and my forefinger is wrapped under and holding the spine side of the tang. That way you can roll the tang from one side to the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

it will stiffen the whiskers and lift them away from the face, making mowing them down much easier. It is rarely discussed on the forum but try it and see..

---

I've noticed that too, Glen. Great to see you mentioned it.

Your razor should be "cutting popping off hairs at tree top level" it's up to the shaver to decide if the blade has been honed to it's full potential.

Yes, on the away stroke, (away from you), 2nd photo, you can torque the blade by pushing the thumb. down on the corner.

On the return stroke, (back to you), 3rd photo, push the corner, up to increase torque on the edge.

Use a relaxed grip so you are not pushing down on the strop. It takes a little getting used to.

The flip becomes a roll of the thumb, like flipping a switch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samircanada

Maybe you dont like it as sharp as I do, maybe your beard is not as strong as mine.

---

My beard can bench 200lbs. ;)

But seriously there is no beard stronger than steel. Honing, stropping & shaving techniques always improve over time & you will find your edge durability will improve also.

There are guys replying here with thousands of razors honed so it would be ludicrous to think they don't like a sharp razor.

I'll just give one example here: I have a customer with a sensitive skin/tough beard combination, 2 razors in rotation. Obviously he does not hone & every 6-8 months I receive his 2 Engstrom f/backs for touchup. His maintenance, stropping & shaving technique is so good I am flat out trying to see any change in the edge with a microscope from the day I last honed them. He doesn't wait any later than when they start a slight tug in the shave. As I said thats 6-8 months. He only shaves every 2nd day but that's still a lot of shaves between hones. Something to aim for IMHO.

Said it before, say it again. hanging hair tests really are not all that useful. Some people (like Me!) have the kind of hair that NEVER passes the test. The best shaving razor I have, came from Gssixgun, and I'm certain that it passed every test he could give it before it was sent to me. But on me? nothing! Oh, and that razor has been in in use with nothing more than standard stropping. At this point it has seen 10 sets of ladies legs, as well as my own face for 2 years, and it was only Feb that it was time for a touch up!