Holding an edge...

There are similar threads active, but I wanted to ask this: How many of you guys feel your razor dulls with just one shave? I don't do the three-razor thing, nor do I strop between passes. I can't get past that old adage of breaking off the fins you've just created. I like to let a razor sit a couple days after use, then strop before shaving with it again. The first shave after a honing is great, but even letting it "rest" and stropping the hell out of it next time, there is a marked degradation of the shave quality. This is more pronounced in some razors over others, but I have yet to find one that is strong enough at the edge to stand up like some claims I read. I have a somewhat strong beard, especially in the chin area, but I'm no lumberjack. I read of guys getting a "Lynn-honed" razor, and with nothing but stropping they say it shaves great for months. I can't see it. I find that I need a touch up on the finer stones followed by paste after around 5 shaves on average. At this point it starts to get uncomfortable. I can hone a razor, scope it to make sure there are no nicks or fins that I missed, and after one shave the scope shows a totally different edge. When I haven't honed any of my regular rotation for awhile, I don't notice it as much (as they are all degrading), but when I hone one, shave with it, and then move on the next day to a razor that I haven't honed in several shaves , THAT'S when it is apparent. Am I alone here? Am I missing something or is my beard just that wiry? Is my honing technique lacking? >........Jeff

Welcome to the club! I just finished the Grand Experiment and my experience especially the last months alternating just two razors every day is that I got about 20 or so shaves from each razor before it just got too uncomfortable. And as you said when I shaved with a different razor that was sharp I realized the degredation in the other two. I think its like everything else if you drive a car without servicing it for a long time it slowly degrades and you don't realize it until after its been properly serviced and then you say wow this thing drives better. No different with a razor as long as it slowly degrades you have no frame of reference and you adjust to it. Only when the shaves become poor or the comfort intolerable you finally realize it.

I saw some of the posts on this on the other site and I just scratched my head with people's claims about going for months without honing.

Jeff, you are not alone. I tried to start this thread a while ago and got no response. I am right with you in the number of shaves, and your whole experience seems too familiar. I too would say that I have hard beard, and the razors are giving up after 5-10 shaves... I am still experimenting with my stropping and diferent strops, and I think I am squizing a couple of shaves plus from my razors. But I think that is reasonable number of shaves you should expect from your carbon blade between honings. The stainless DE, machine sharpened, and with diferent alloy from your average carbon and stainless straight lasts about the same, ~5 to 10 shaves, without stropping. When my razors are slightly loosing their edge, I use short diagonal strokes to make them last longer. After 2 or so shaves more, it's off to the hone... As I stated somewhere else, the term "months" when describing edge holding is wrong term. It's the number of shaves that counts. Right now, I am rotating between my two 68DOVO's for a month or so... Given that I shave every other day, I'd say I got ~5-7 shaves from each one, and I think they are good for a couple more... Jeff, try stroping before AND after each shave, I think it improved the edges on my razors. My stainless razor is at rest right now. I am not shaving with it until I am confident with my edge treatment completely and until I get my second stainless. I want to know if the stainless will hold the edge longer.

Nenad

Well, I've got a lighter beard and I must say I'm actually a little frustrated at how long they my razors DO hold their edge. Not enough honing! I'm rotating between four razors right now and they will last several weeks before beginning to show signs of dulling. I can tell when they're dulling pretty quickly too since I'm always demanding the best shave from my blades.

X

Nenad the stainless SHOULD hold an edge longer, with the chromium added for hardness. There is one concern I have though. The stainless should be HT with a little less hardness to compensate for this. I feel it doesn't have the "give" that a carbon edge has ~ a bit brittle. I have noticed my Dovo INOX will be shave sharp for longer, but it seems to chip out microscopically very quickly and get's uncomfortable just about as quickly as a carbon, albeit for what I perceive to be a different reason. The carbon just gets dull, whereas with the INOX it is still sharp, only I'm raking microscopic nicks over my face. If I could soften it one or two points on the Rockwell scale it would be perfect. Just my layman opinion though.....thoughts? Man I wish Darrel would hurry up with the CPM prototype he's tinkering with. I think he's aiming for mid-upper 50's on hardness for this very reason. ......Jeff

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Originally Posted by superfly

My stainless razor is at rest right now. I am not shaving with it until I am confident with my edge treatment completely and until I get my second stainless. I want to know if the stainless will hold the edge longer.

Nenad

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Well, i guess it's time to bring again my DOVO stainless in the game... The thing with CPM steel is that it will have better carbon consistency in the alloy, thus preventing the micro chipping? Also, the reason hi-carbon non stainless steel is prefered for now as a shaving steel is that instead of edge breaking when in contact with the whiskers, it "crumbles" or compresses, which can be later "ironed" or straightened up again with the strop... That's another theory of mine, that the strop is actually pulling the edge thinner, just like the worker is hammering the edge of his scyte, but that's a differnt post altogether. I think today's stainless used in razors by DOVO is not up to the quality of the hi carbon, because of the reasons you stated. DOVO didn't had much user's input and feedback like in the razor's heydays to fine tune their stainless steel. I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is... Now, i dont have much experience in sharpening stainless razors, but I think I am willing to sacrifice a bit more time on the hone for doubling or tripling the edge's life. Hmm, I dont know, but I think if you soften the stainless a few points on the Rockwell, you will get the same edge holding capabilities as in the hi-carbon steel. It might be better if you try to harden the stainless the highest number possible, but taking advantage on the metals in the alloy, which are supposed to make the edge stronger... That will also bring more time on the hone. It will be nice if Darrel could make two prototypes for testing, one properly heat treated, and the other a bit softer...

Nenad

[QUOTE=superfly]I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is...softer...

I used my INOX Damascus blade from the Maestro for about a month (25 - 30 shaves) and I only honed it becase I chiped the blade somehow. I make the first pass across the grain and do not feal a thing!

Mason

Mason, that's great info. Can you please tell us what is the number of shaves you usualy get from your other razors?

thanx,
Nenad

ATS34 isn't a CPM steel. CPM means Crucible Particle Metalurgy, and it is a process through which CPM steels are made, thus the nomenclature. ATS34 is a high speed bearing steel made to hold up under extreme environments. It is a great cutter, but I can't see how it's softer. At 60-62 rockwell, it is indeed MUCH harder than the old carbon steels of yore. You could take that blade and shave slices off of an old razor. ATS has been popular with custom knifemakers for some years now, as it is affordable, easy to work with on a grinder and easy to heat treat. That and it is a fantastic performer in all facets of the cutlery world. It's an all around great steel. But it is no wonder steel. That category is a bit more pricey, and a bit more diffucult to work with. So I am told by several knifemaker friends anyway. I have different blades of all of the above and I use them, but no razors yet. I can attest to their attributes in knives, that's about it. We'll see what happens. Darrel mentioned not taking them too high on the Rockwell because if you did with CPM, we couldn't sharpen it. You'd almost have to go diamond, otherwise it would take weeks on end. A finishing smooth leather strop would be useless. CPM440V I made a kitchen knife of the stuff, hardened to 62, and it took FOREVER to get an edge on, that was with a Burr King! I think what I would like to see is a CPM razor that will respond to our methods almost as easily as our antiques, but will get WAY sharper, and hold it longer, even at a lower hardness. That will keep the brittleness away as well. ......Jeff

It is hard to say. I have only used TI’s and used a dally rotation before I got the Maestro’s blade. I do have a Damascus TI that was sharpened by Lynn, if I remember correctly I got about 6 shaves out of it. But now I have three strops, a cores, a medium and a supper fine. I go to my cores about every five or six shaves, and the rest of the time it is the supper fine for me.

Mason

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Originally Posted by threeputt

ATS34 isn't a CPM steel. CPM means Crucible Particle Metalurgy, and it is a process through which CPM steels are made, thus the nomenclature.

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Actually ATS34 is a CPM.
ATS 34 started out as '154-CM' (i.e. cruciable metalurgy-> which changed to crucible particle metalurgy), but was not made in the sizes and volumes many knife makers needed so it was difficult to obtain and work with. Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

Gonna toss my hat in this ring and let you folks know that I've heard back from the tungsten people. They say that the metal will indeed probably be too brittle (props to Tony for calling this first). There were ideas tossed around for Talonite, but I did some research and found that doesn't hold up very well and the Cobalt makes it very expensive. I've contacted a custom knife maker that works with CPMs to see if he can't make us some razors out of CPM-10V :) I haven't heard back from him, but I informed him that we'd probably want 100 for an initial run.

I have knives made of ATS34 as well as 154CM, and as far as I can tell they are almost identical, although I prefer 154CM if possible, only because it is made in the United States, unlike ATS34.
Both are good steels, IMHO, my bias notwithstanding.
I HOPE they wouldn't cut slices off of my razors, which I think is just as much about hardness of temper as it is about the steel;anyway...who would do such a thing....? :eek:
John P

I've given up worrying about how many shaves I get just stropping, because I'm not planning to do much real honning, and it seems to work. As soon as I feel the slightest discomfort in a razor, I'll touch it up a bit on a pasted strop. If I'm shaving it'll get just a few swipes on a Swaty. That does keep the razor from deteriorating, and it does lat a long time. i seem to be able to keep it at that optimum level if I don't allow real deterioration.

Am I just spreading out my honing? I don't care. I just know that I'll get the best shave out of a razor every time. Why settle for anything less? I really see no disadvantage doing it that way.

It might just be that if you do minute honing on an ongoing basis you might never need real honing. It might be an interesting experiment to see whether, over a long time, you remove the same amount of material from a razor with touchups as you do with periodic honing.

I usually find that if I catch the blade just as it starts to get uncomfortable I'm able to do about 20 passes on the yellow corticule and about 10 minutes on the 12,000 and its as good as new. I rarely use the 4K on my working razors. This afternoon I honed up SRP 38 and my other TI from the Grand experiment and I had to do some 4K honing because they had been really taken down. Normally I wouldn't let them get to that state in my normal rotation. I have a Dorko 6/8s that is a superb shaver, wicked sharp but gives an uncomfortable shave. A few strokes on the yellow corticule and 10 minutes on the 12,000 and it shaves like a dream.

I think the key here is keep up with the maintainance. I don't doubt that if you use the pasted strop at the first sign of degredation you probably would never need a hone at all.

I saw a post by someone saying they have a TI damascus that only lasted 6 shaves? Thats incredible, I have one and once I got it properly honed I've probably gone 15 shaves and it still shaves as good as when I honed it. As a matter of fact its when I used it I realized it was time for the fat lady to sing on the Grand Experiment!

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I usually find that if I catch the blade just as it starts to get uncomfortable I'm able to do about 20 passes on the yellow corticule and about 10 minutes on the 12,000 and its as good as new.

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To me that's really honing. When I talk about refreshing a razor, I mean 3-5 swipes on a Swaty and back to the strop. That's the way my old time barber used to do it.

It might be my sensitive skin, but I'm not comfortable (shaving) letting a razor go until it needs that much work.

Providing an update to my update. I heard back from the knife maker and he said CPM-10V would not be optimal because it has poor corrosion resistance. He suggested that if we want to try a newer material to go with S90V. To quote Doug, "It is extremely hard and edge retension is increadible, it is also nearly corrosion proof. Down side is that it is very spendy to get and the only one I know who will heat treat it charges $25 per blade." Quite frankly the $25 per blade seems like small potatoes if we do this on a case by case basis. I'm trying to get more details from this fellow and I will let you know if he is interested in trying to do this. Since he does custom work only, these would probably be closer to Maestro Livi's prices if you wanted to go forward with these.

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Originally Posted by Kelly

Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

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The steel I am referring to is CPM154, not 154CM. Two different animals. CPM154 is a new steel from Crucible in Texas. That's the steel Darrel will be using. Ultra pure, powdered steel with a very small grain size. Not cheap either, but in an application such as this it shouldn't be too bad. It should make for an incredible razor blade, performance wise. I think the trick will be to get the HT just right so it will be soft enough to respond to our stone and strop methods and not be brittle, while still taking AND HOLDING a very very sharp edge. We'll see how it turns out.... ..........Jeff

Hi Guys, Gals,

I have finally started making Razors. SO far I have found the cpm154 to be very nice for this application. I will be making some really cool razor blades soon.
All suggestions that I can possibly do I will try.
Let me here them.
CPM10v would make a nice razor as would s90v.
The problem is the vanadium would not strop well.
It glazes so easy.
Diamond paste might work.
I have some carbon material that I think you all may like.

[QUOTE=Ruckeriii]

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Originally Posted by superfly

I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is...softer...

I used my INOX Damascus blade from the Maestro for about a month (25 - 30 shaves) and I only honed it becase I chiped the blade somehow. I make the first pass across the grain and do not feal a thing!

Mason

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ATS-34 isn't CPM steel. CPM154CM, which has almost the same formulation is. ATS-34 is a trade name for a steel made by Hitachi. It was originally called 154CM in the states, but the U.S. mills quit making it for quite a while, and Hitachi took up the slack. CPM154CM is also what I make my knives out of.

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Originally Posted by Kelly

Actually ATS34 is a CPM.
ATS 34 started out as '154-CM' (i.e. cruciable metalurgy-> which changed to crucible particle metalurgy), but was not made in the sizes and volumes many knife makers needed so it was difficult to obtain and work with. Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

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ATS-34 is a conventionally produced high carbon stainless tool steel. It is NOT a CPM steel. If it doesn't have CPM in front of it, it ain't a CPM steel, as CPM (Crucible Particle Metallurgy) is a patented, copyrighted manufacturing process. There are a couple European companies making powdered steel, but ATS-34 isn't one of them. RWL-34 is the powder steel version of ATS-34, and is designated as such.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

ATS-34 is a conventionally produced high carbon stainless tool steel. It is NOT a CPM steel. If it doesn't have CPM in front of it, it ain't a CPM steel, as CPM (Crucible Particle Metallurgy) is a patented, copyrighted manufacturing process. There are a couple European companies making powdered steel, but ATS-34 isn't one of them. RWL-34 is the powder steel version of ATS-34, and is designated as such.

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What he said. :roflmao