Thread: Holding an edge...

There are similar threads active, but I wanted to ask this: How many of you guys feel your razor dulls with just one shave? I don't do the three-razor thing, nor do I strop between passes. I can't get past that old adage of breaking off the fins you've just created. I like to let a razor sit a couple days after use, then strop before shaving with it again. The first shave after a honing is great, but even letting it "rest" and stropping the hell out of it next time, there is a marked degradation of the shave quality. This is more pronounced in some razors over others, but I have yet to find one that is strong enough at the edge to stand up like some claims I read. I have a somewhat strong beard, especially in the chin area, but I'm no lumberjack. I read of guys getting a "Lynn-honed" razor, and with nothing but stropping they say it shaves great for months. I can't see it. I find that I need a touch up on the finer stones followed by paste after around 5 shaves on average. At this point it starts to get uncomfortable. I can hone a razor, scope it to make sure there are no nicks or fins that I missed, and after one shave the scope shows a totally different edge. When I haven't honed any of my regular rotation for awhile, I don't notice it as much (as they are all degrading), but when I hone one, shave with it, and then move on the next day to a razor that I haven't honed in several shaves , THAT'S when it is apparent. Am I alone here? Am I missing something or is my beard just that wiry? Is my honing technique lacking? >........Jeff

Welcome to the club! I just finished the Grand Experiment and my experience especially the last months alternating just two razors every day is that I got about 20 or so shaves from each razor before it just got too uncomfortable. And as you said when I shaved with a different razor that was sharp I realized the degredation in the other two. I think its like everything else if you drive a car without servicing it for a long time it slowly degrades and you don't realize it until after its been properly serviced and then you say wow this thing drives better. No different with a razor as long as it slowly degrades you have no frame of reference and you adjust to it. Only when the shaves become poor or the comfort intolerable you finally realize it.

I saw some of the posts on this on the other site and I just scratched my head with people's claims about going for months without honing.

Jeff, you are not alone. I tried to start this thread a while ago and got no response. I am right with you in the number of shaves, and your whole experience seems too familiar. I too would say that I have hard beard, and the razors are giving up after 5-10 shaves... I am still experimenting with my stropping and diferent strops, and I think I am squizing a couple of shaves plus from my razors. But I think that is reasonable number of shaves you should expect from your carbon blade between honings. The stainless DE, machine sharpened, and with diferent alloy from your average carbon and stainless straight lasts about the same, ~5 to 10 shaves, without stropping. When my razors are slightly loosing their edge, I use short diagonal strokes to make them last longer. After 2 or so shaves more, it's off to the hone... As I stated somewhere else, the term "months" when describing edge holding is wrong term. It's the number of shaves that counts. Right now, I am rotating between my two 68DOVO's for a month or so... Given that I shave every other day, I'd say I got ~5-7 shaves from each one, and I think they are good for a couple more... Jeff, try stroping before AND after each shave, I think it improved the edges on my razors. My stainless razor is at rest right now. I am not shaving with it until I am confident with my edge treatment completely and until I get my second stainless. I want to know if the stainless will hold the edge longer.

Nenad

Well, I've got a lighter beard and I must say I'm actually a little frustrated at how long they my razors DO hold their edge. Not enough honing! I'm rotating between four razors right now and they will last several weeks before beginning to show signs of dulling. I can tell when they're dulling pretty quickly too since I'm always demanding the best shave from my blades.

X

Nenad the stainless SHOULD hold an edge longer, with the chromium added for hardness. There is one concern I have though. The stainless should be HT with a little less hardness to compensate for this. I feel it doesn't have the "give" that a carbon edge has ~ a bit brittle. I have noticed my Dovo INOX will be shave sharp for longer, but it seems to chip out microscopically very quickly and get's uncomfortable just about as quickly as a carbon, albeit for what I perceive to be a different reason. The carbon just gets dull, whereas with the INOX it is still sharp, only I'm raking microscopic nicks over my face. If I could soften it one or two points on the Rockwell scale it would be perfect. Just my layman opinion though.....thoughts? Man I wish Darrel would hurry up with the CPM prototype he's tinkering with. I think he's aiming for mid-upper 50's on hardness for this very reason. ......Jeff

Originally Posted by superfly

My stainless razor is at rest right now. I am not shaving with it until I am confident with my edge treatment completely and until I get my second stainless. I want to know if the stainless will hold the edge longer.

Nenad

Well, i guess it's time to bring again my DOVO stainless in the game... The thing with CPM steel is that it will have better carbon consistency in the alloy, thus preventing the micro chipping? Also, the reason hi-carbon non stainless steel is prefered for now as a shaving steel is that instead of edge breaking when in contact with the whiskers, it "crumbles" or compresses, which can be later "ironed" or straightened up again with the strop... That's another theory of mine, that the strop is actually pulling the edge thinner, just like the worker is hammering the edge of his scyte, but that's a differnt post altogether. I think today's stainless used in razors by DOVO is not up to the quality of the hi carbon, because of the reasons you stated. DOVO didn't had much user's input and feedback like in the razor's heydays to fine tune their stainless steel. I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is... Now, i dont have much experience in sharpening stainless razors, but I think I am willing to sacrifice a bit more time on the hone for doubling or tripling the edge's life. Hmm, I dont know, but I think if you soften the stainless a few points on the Rockwell, you will get the same edge holding capabilities as in the hi-carbon steel. It might be better if you try to harden the stainless the highest number possible, but taking advantage on the metals in the alloy, which are supposed to make the edge stronger... That will also bring more time on the hone. It will be nice if Darrel could make two prototypes for testing, one properly heat treated, and the other a bit softer...

Nenad

[QUOTE=superfly]I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is...softer...

I used my INOX Damascus blade from the Maestro for about a month (25 - 30 shaves) and I only honed it becase I chiped the blade somehow. I make the first pass across the grain and do not feal a thing!

Mason

Mason, that's great info. Can you please tell us what is the number of shaves you usualy get from your other razors?

thanx,
Nenad

ATS34 isn't a CPM steel. CPM means Crucible Particle Metalurgy, and it is a process through which CPM steels are made, thus the nomenclature. ATS34 is a high speed bearing steel made to hold up under extreme environments. It is a great cutter, but I can't see how it's softer. At 60-62 rockwell, it is indeed MUCH harder than the old carbon steels of yore. You could take that blade and shave slices off of an old razor. ATS has been popular with custom knifemakers for some years now, as it is affordable, easy to work with on a grinder and easy to heat treat. That and it is a fantastic performer in all facets of the cutlery world. It's an all around great steel. But it is no wonder steel. That category is a bit more pricey, and a bit more diffucult to work with. So I am told by several knifemaker friends anyway. I have different blades of all of the above and I use them, but no razors yet. I can attest to their attributes in knives, that's about it. We'll see what happens. Darrel mentioned not taking them too high on the Rockwell because if you did with CPM, we couldn't sharpen it. You'd almost have to go diamond, otherwise it would take weeks on end. A finishing smooth leather strop would be useless. CPM440V I made a kitchen knife of the stuff, hardened to 62, and it took FOREVER to get an edge on, that was with a Burr King! I think what I would like to see is a CPM razor that will respond to our methods almost as easily as our antiques, but will get WAY sharper, and hold it longer, even at a lower hardness. That will keep the brittleness away as well. ......Jeff

It is hard to say. I have only used TI’s and used a dally rotation before I got the Maestro’s blade. I do have a Damascus TI that was sharpened by Lynn, if I remember correctly I got about 6 shaves out of it. But now I have three strops, a cores, a medium and a supper fine. I go to my cores about every five or six shaves, and the rest of the time it is the supper fine for me.

Mason