Another Question on "Sanitation" and/or "Sterilization"

I know this has been brought up by others in the past (or similar questions) But I was wondering if there are any "Germoligists" around
I just came back from a festival, where I had a number of people ask me to practice my skills at shaving on their faces. I enjoy providing this experience to those who have never experienced a real shave.

But this time, I had a person request a shave, who informed me that they were also positive for Hep-C

I was not worried about contacting it from performing the shave, Being informed allowed me to take precautions. But after the shave, I put that razor, that brush, (used cream, not soap so that was not an issue THIS time) and that strop away.

What steps, if any, would be proper for sterilizing these items? Is worrying about the brush and strop going to an extreme?

I dont have barbaside, so what might be suitable "around the house" items that are suitable to accomplish this goal? Alcohol? Listerine? Peroxide?

Time is one sure solution. Hepatitis will live a long time on surfaces but not forever. I think it is something like a month on a surface such as steel. As long as there was no blood contact there are no worries. A nick or maybe a weeper might be cause for concern. There are some cleaning solutions such as madacide that kill the hep virus among others. Might be more expensive than you would want to spend for infrequent use. Put the razor in a drawer and forget about it for a couple of months.

Go get some Barbicide its cheap, read the label and do it right.
Toss the brush, store the strop for a year in a dry window sill.
Just MO.
Dont ask a hairdresser about barbicide btw, two of them told me how to mix it, both incorrect according to the bottle.

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Originally Posted by Magpie

I know this has been brought up by others in the past (or similar questions) But I was wondering if there are any "Germoligists" around
I just came back from a festival, where I had a number of people ask me to practice my skills at shaving on their faces. I enjoy providing this experience to those who have never experienced a real shave.

But this time, I had a person request a shave, who informed me that they were also positive for Hep-C

I was not worried about contacting it from performing the shave, Being informed allowed me to take precautions. But after the shave, I put that razor, that brush, (used cream, not soap so that was not an issue THIS time) and that strop away.

What steps, if any, would be proper for sterilizing these items? Is worrying about the brush and strop going to an extreme?

I dont have barbaside, so what might be suitable "around the house" items that are suitable to accomplish this goal? Alcohol? Listerine? Peroxide?

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Barbicide is not too expensive and even a smaller size of the concentrate will last a long time. Your shaving brush should be for you alone and they can be sterilized with barbicide but is may discolor and stain but better to be safe. The razor itself should be sterilized going from person to another and that is easy. If your razor is sterilized before going to the strop you never have to worry about it.

Jimmy, I know most viruses don't last too long on the outside but other germs and harmful bacteria can encapsulate and last for a very long time. Get the barbicide and the sterilizing jar, it looks very cool in the shave den. Just my 2c.

Being a pro tattooer for a couple of decades, and having recently been required to take the blood borne pathogen course to get licensed, ( something new in FL ..... they need money) I know a little about this topic. Barbicide is something I routinely used when I used to ..... for over 10 years.... shave customers with a removable blade straight razor. The stuff solidifies on whatever you put in it and will leave crystals on your beloved razor if you leave it in the mix for days and don't take it out and rinse and wipe it down. I forget what the jug says but it should be changed like every day or every other day. Like a teaspoon to a quart or so. Like I say, been years since I used it. I consider it a waste of money unless you're a pro barber and want to impress your customers and have something to stick your combs in. YMMV.

Say u buy antique razors from antique shops what would u use to clean and sanitize so u don't have to worry

The surest biocide is heat, but in the case of a straight you'd have to make sure it's slow enough to not cause microfissuring (microscopic cracks at the grain boundaries). Because the edge is so much thinner than the spine & heats up faster it'll expand more quickly, and contract faster than the rest of the blade. You'd also have to have scales that can handle the temps, which your regular plastics won't, they'd have to be something like bone, horn or a metal. It'd be a lot of trouble, but you'd never doubt its effectiveness. Your more traditional chemical biocides are likely best for most people.

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Originally Posted by KenWeir

The surest biocide is heat, but in the case of a straight you'd have to make sure it's slow enough to not cause microfissuring (microscopic cracks at the grain boundaries). Because the edge is so much thinner than the spine & heats up faster it'll expand more quickly, and contract faster than the rest of the blade. You'd also have to have scales that can handle the temps, which your regular plastics won't, they'd have to be something like bone, horn or a metal. It'd be a lot of trouble, but you'd never doubt its effectiveness. Your more traditional chemical biocides are likely best for most people.

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What kind of temps are you thinking Ken?

That's why jurisdictions have regulations about using razors and brushes and other such things and it's one of the reasons why straights aren't used these days.

Yes, you know about the guy with hep C but what about all the others you shaved? Hopefully you didn't use the same gear on all those people right?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

That's why jurisdictions have regulations about using razors and brushes and other such things and it's one of the reasons why straights aren't used these days.

Yes, you know about the guy with hep C but what about all the others you shaved? Hopefully you didn't use the same gear on all those people right?

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When doing tattoos ..... there will be blood .... we assume everyone is a possible risk. I would guess the same assumption should be made when working on anyone if exposure to their blood is a possibility. Especially for an amateur shaver . :gl:

As far as new gear from an antique store etc., I figure the Flitz polishing will clear the blade of anything hiding on its surface. I de-crud between the scales if necessary, with ivory soap and a toothbrush or floss. I'll do a full unpin if I really want to clean the pivot, then can hit every surface with Flitz and soapy water.

For the blade, I've never gone hotter than a boiling water rinse. I hope that's hot enough to do the necessary biological damage without incurring weird metallurgical consequences.

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Originally Posted by earcutter

What kind of temps are you thinking Ken?

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250-300F should kill any infectious bacteria/virus. Not hot enough to affect the temper/hardening, but hot enough you'd want to bring it up & back down gradually, especially if you intend to repeat the process multiple times.

I believe that's how they do/did surgical equipment.

Edit: Excerpt from an article on sterilizing with dry heat as opposed to pressurized steam;

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Dry heat can be used to sterilize items, but as the heat takes much longer to be transferred to the organism, both the time and the temperature must usually be increased, unless forced ventilation of the hot air is used. The standard setting for a hot air oven is at least two hours at 160 °C (320 °F). A rapid method heats air to 190 °C (374 °F) for 6 minutes for unwrapped objects and 12 minutes for wrapped objects. Dry heat has the advantage that it can be used on powders and other heat-stable items that are adversely affected by steam (for instance, it does not cause rusting of steel objects).

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To protect the edge however, you'd want to slow the heating/cooling times to about 20-30 minutes each with the 2-hr hold in between. Once it's below 200F it'd be safe to let them cool in open air.


On boiling;

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Boiling in water for fifteen minutes will kill most vegetative bacteria and inactivate viruses, but boiling is ineffective against prions and many bacterial and fungal spores; therefore boiling is unsuitable for sterilization. However, since boiling does kill most vegetative microbes and viruses, it is useful for reducing viable levels if no better method is available.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Being a pro tattooer for a couple of decades, and having recently been required to take the blood borne pathogen course to get licensed, ( something new in FL ..... they need money) I know a little about this topic. Barbicide is something I routinely used when I used to ..... for over 10 years.... shave customers with a removable blade straight razor. The stuff solidifies on whatever you put in it and will leave crystals on your beloved razor if you leave it in the mix for days and don't take it out and rinse and wipe it down. I forget what the jug says but it should be changed like every day or every other day. Like a teaspoon to a quart or so. Like I say, been years since I used it. I consider it a waste of money unless you're a pro barber and want to impress your customers and have something to stick your combs in. YMMV.

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The new formulation of Barbicide is supposed to be better for corrosion resistance on metals. The only instruments I have left in Barbicide for more than a day were Barber shears with no ill effects. I only leave the razors in for no more than an hour and rinse, wipe then oil down blade. So far so good.

Also, not being professional barber and only doing some family members hair and shaves, the solution is stable when mixed and will last much longer than it will if using it in professionaly which should be changed daily. I have a jar with solution in it all the times and only change it occasionaly since it is not used every day. IMO it is not a waste of money to prevent passing on a potential problem even if the chances of doing so are small.

A side note, the word barbicide literally means to kill the beard. What were they thinking?

EDIT: Here is a link to MSDS that shows that shelf life is not an issue for keeping the solution mixed for extended periods.

http://www.king-research.com/pdf/msd...icide_MSDS.pdf

Man this thread is freaking me out LOL - As i am weak of mind, I think I might just be best off to un-subscribe LOL! :)

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Man this thread is freaking me out LOL - As i am weak of mind, I think I might just be best off to un-subscribe LOL! :)

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It's good stuff to know though. I'd want to be able to sterilize my razors any time I noticed they'd been handled while I was out. Anybody could be carrying anything these days & even a compartment in your suitcase or rolled up in a pair of dirty underwear isn't safe if a curious hotel housekeeper sees a fancy brush/mug on the counter and a strop hanging from the towel rack. He/She may want to check out this razor because lets face it, straight razors are really cool & pop-culture has firmly engraved a half old-school & half morbid/psycho stamp on them. They may check the edge with their thumb. They may be carrying hep c or hiv. You may get a herpe when you nick the corner of your mouth. Explain that one to the wife!

Without knowing you have to assume it could happen.

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Originally Posted by KenWeir

It's good stuff to know though. I'd want to be able to sterilize my razors any time I noticed they'd been handled while I was out. Anybody could be carrying anything these days & even a compartment in your suitcase or rolled up in a pair of dirty underwear isn't safe if a curious hotel housekeeper sees a fancy brush/mug on the counter and a strop hanging from the towel rack. He/She may want to check out this razor because lets face it, straight razors are really cool & pop-culture has firmly engraved a half old-school & half morbid/psycho stamp on them. They may check the edge with their thumb. They may be carrying hep c or hiv. You may get a herpe when you nick the corner of your mouth. Explain that one to the wife!

Without knowing you have to assume it could happen.

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I always leave my razor on the side when in a hotel and this never crossed my noggin. Now im freaked.

Geek

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Originally Posted by TheGeek

I always leave my razor on the side when in a hotel and this never crossed my noggin. Now im freaked.

Geek

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I spend 8-9 months of the year in hotel rooms, absolutely nothing is safe. I've had beer, clothes, cartons of cigarettes, loose change, pens, phone chargers, even my friggin wedding band stolen by housekeepers. Seriously, how low do you have to sink to steal a man's wedding band? I wasn't even fancy, just a plain old 18c gold band, but it meant the world to me, I'd only been married for 2 months, still getting used to wearing one and forgot to put it back on after a shower. I couldn't look my wife in the eye for 3 weeks after that happened. I'll never again be able to see what the love of my life gave me on our wedding day. One of my coworkers had a laptop stolen by a housekeeper. Another about $2k in cash, stuffed in a hidden compartment in his suitcase. I literally searched his suitcase for 15 minutes and couldn't find the compartment until he showed me, but the cash was gone. I believe him because he showed me a second compartment that still had $500 in it. There is no honor system. You claim something is stolen it's your word against theirs & they've worked there for 5 years without a single documented complaint. Now I'm not saying they're all thieves. It's probably a very small percentage, but even if it's only 1%, I spend 200-300 nights in a hotel room every year. Statistically that's 2-3 times a year on average I'll have something stolen from me no matter what precautions I take. Believe me, the possibility of someone messing with your things is very real, especially when it comes to something as curious as a straight razor.

It may be common-place & normal for people who use them all the time but the overwhelming majority of people view them with a sense of awe. The sharpest edge humanly possible, demon barber on Fleet Street, those sorts of things. To be honest I can't blame them for wanting to look at or handle them because they're completely oblivious to how fragile the edge is. Ever get back from a vacation & see a nick in the blade that wasn't there before or it doesn't quite shave like you'd expect? Housekeeping probably opened it up & wanted to see if it'd slice through an old toilet paper roll in their waste can. If they flick their thumb across the blade to see how sharp it is that's a very real & very possible source of infection. They're probably not carrying anything serious or if they are they probably don't know it, but the possibility is there & the golden rule is avoid contact with bodily fluids at all costs. Ever get a cold or flu shortly after taking a trip somewhere? You can get over those in a few days. You can't get over hiv, ever. You'll never have more kids, you'll never kiss your wife again. In a lot of cases you might be lucky if she doesn't leave.

This week is my first week traveling with a straight razor. I've been keeping my razors locked up in the glove box of my truck during the day so they're not even in the room. I have to tell you I'm seriously thinking about adding a small bottle of barbacide to my travel kit so I can have a reliable disinfectant at all times. Some places I'd be kicked out if I tried to enter with a straight in my vehicle, so there will be times that it has to stay in the hotel room.

At home around family I wouldn't worry much at all, because if your wife or kids are carrying something you probably already know. When it comes to hotels though, all bets are off. Anybody strapped for cash will vacuum a room & change the sheets for $10/hr so you never know who's going to be there.

Sorry for the rant, I'll try to keep my posts a little shorter in the future....

Edit: The same curiosity applies to people checking your baggage in airports. It would be a very good idea to disinfect once you've landed & claimed your baggage.

The "gold standard" for sterilization is the autoclave which is essentially a pressure cooker. Steam at 15 psi pressure has a temperature of about 250 F which rapidly transfers heat to objects and penetrates into nooks and crannies. The heat of the autoclave kills viruses, bacteria, bacterial spores, and fungi. Unfortunately many objects needing to be sterilized cannot withstand this heat and sometimes the exposure to the water. Straight razors intended for medical use usually have stainless scales so the they can withstand autoclaving. DE razors may have parts that cannot withstand heat. Objects that cannot withstand the autoclave must be treated with an effective disinfectant.

The risk of infectious diseases from razors is usually related to bloodborne pathogens. Any tool that may come into contact with even minimal amounts of blood may transfer a bloodborne disease from one person to another unless sterilized between clients. Medical authorities teach that all clients should be assumed to be possibly infected and universal precautions taken to protect workers and other clients.

Commonly available disinfectants include 70% ethyl or isopropyl alcohol, chlorine bleach (10% in water), and hydrogen peroxide from the pharmacy. Alcohol is not always effective against certain viruses. Barbicide is mostly isopropyl alcohol and alkyldimethylbenzylammonium chloride. Razors should be disinfected, cleaned, and treated again for at least the minimal time recommended. Clean instruments allow effective contact between instrument surfaces and the disinfectant, dirt may prevent disinfectant/microbial contact.

Some disinfectants could damage razor blades or scales with even brief contact so I reccommend Barbicide, unless you are sure that another disinfectant is safe for your razor. I recommend cleaning disinfectants off the razors immediately after disinfectant use followed by protecting the scales and blade steel in the usual manner. Leaving razors submerged in disinfectant for long periods may damage them.

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Originally Posted by sheajohnw

The "gold standard" for sterilization is the autoclave which is essentially a pressure cooker. Steam at 15 psi pressure has a temperature of about 250 F which rapidly transfers heat to objects and penetrates into nooks and crannies. The heat of the autoclave kills viruses, bacteria, bacterial spores, and fungi. Unfortunately many objects needing to be sterilized cannot withstand this heat and sometimes the exposure to the water. Straight razors intended for medical use usually have stainless scales so the they can withstand autoclaving. DE razors may have parts that cannot withstand heat. Objects that cannot withstand the autoclave must be treated with an effective disinfectant.

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Autoclave was the comparison in the dry heat vs. pressurized steam quote I posted earlier. It is indeed the most effective way to sterilize/disinfect items, but as you said the steam/heat isn't compatible with many razors. I wouldn't expose lucite to anything over 180F, & most other plastics for that matter. A chemical disinfectant like barbicide is probably the simplest, most cost-effective method for most of us.

Really, all you need is to hone the blade. If you want a little more, give it an alcohol dip. If you're anal about germs, Clorox makes a bleach free antibacterial wipe. Anything more, in my opinion, would be overkill. As far as hepititis, time is the best way to kill it.

Just wanted to chime in about the Barbicide, it's cheap insurance (purchased mine at a Sally beauty supply for $7) according to the directions, you mix 2oz. Barbicide to 32oz. water, then what ever item your sanitizing should soak for at least 10 min. and left to air dry. If someone covered this all ready sorry for the repeat....

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Originally Posted by Theseus

Really, all you need is to hone the blade. If you want a little more, give it an alcohol dip. If you're anal about germs, Clorox makes a bleach free antibacterial wipe. Anything more, in my opinion, would be overkill. As far as hepititis, time is the best way to kill it.

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+1. I have been using autoclave sterilization for 20+ years. Castle, Pelton Crane, Speedclave, American Sterilizer ..... had access to all. Pelton Crane the past 16 years. Anyway .... 265 Fahrenheit to kill bugs. Three minutes unbagged and 30 minutes for bagged instruments. Nowadays just about every jurisdiction demands bagged instruments and spore samples sent to an independent lab to guarantee the clave is killing the bugs. Google needle sticks by health care workers and you'll find it takes a certain amount of blood ..... in most cases way more than a drop ..... to transmit stuff like HIV.

Anyway, in 45 years of shaving I've never sterilized any shaving equipment. Not that I used on myself or the disposable blade straight I used to use on tattoo customers. BTW, I would change the blade at least once a month whether it needed it or not. Same with the old timers I broke in with. Before the early '70s most tattooers tattooed with no gloves, using the same needles , without more than a rinse, if that, and the same ink containers for every customer.

In the '60s they used a sponge and bucket with a drop of lysol in it to wipe the tattoo. No spray bottles, no paper towels. The first 3 or 4 tattoos I received were done in the '60s by guys who tattooed like that. Ain't got nothin' yet. Chances are I have a lot stronger immune system for it. Keep using your anti bacterial soap and what not. Builds stronger bugs. :rock:

Amateur question: What about these steam-cleaner boxes they uses to use for surgical tools in the OR or ambulant surgical practices? I guess they might adversely affect certain scale materials, but would certainly keep everything sterile...

Each of us hobbiests are free to do what we think is best for our own protection. My focus is to help protect hobbiest razor users from infection risks possibly associated with newly acquired used razors and also their razors from damage. Cleaning a razor with soap and water/Scrubbing Bubbles followed by a dip in most common disinfectants and a water rinse should do the job. However, there are different levels of confidence associated with various disinfection procedures. As a public health person, I am reluctant to propose any procedures less than those that would be considered professionally acceptable, even if I know that they will likely work out OK. Any procedure that cleans/disinfects a razor is safer than doing nothing. Time and drying will kill many bloodborne pathogens, but I would not like to experience the reaction were I to offer this as my method of sterilization upon an evaluation of the safety and acceptability of my instrument cleaning/disinfection procedures.;)

You may want to look at HYDROCIDE also used in barbershops sold at Sally's at a fraction of the cost of Barbacide .

The air we breathe is the #1 killer of "bugs" outside the body. Mix that (letting a razor "rest" for a bit) with a dip in 90% alcohol and a soapy environment and you really have a safe environment to shave in.

I have probably shaved with about 200 razors that I have honed for others using this routine. Think about it just a bit, just because you are online friends, we don't know squat about one another. My routine is fine for me.

One thing that I WILL NOT DO IS SHARE MY BRUSH WITH ANYONE.

For educational reference, I minored in Biology simply due to my fascination of virology & bacteria and our abilities to manipulate it. That was back in the late 80's and early 90's...who knows what can be done to them NOW with our current technologies. THAT is what scares me.

Sunlight is hard on a lot of things, too, but I don't know if it's hard on virus. Drying something out and subjecting it to direct sunlight for a while will likely not hurt anything.

(I wouldn't by any means use that as the only method, though. I use barbicide, like someone said above, it was cheap at sally beauty supply. When I get a new razor, I put it through a cycle (10 minutes or whatever it was, take the blade out, let it dry, and then go through reconditioning.))

I wondered about autosol and other things of that sort, like when you're reconditioning a razor. It's got to be pretty hard on viruses and bacteria. It sure smells like it's killing brain cells at a rapid rate.

I sure didn't mean to whip up a scary scenario here. I dont believe in being afraid, I believe in being careful.

For shaving the people I did, I never re-used razors. Each person got their own. It was a camping style event, and I was there for 2 weeks, so I brought a selection of gear, and a pile of razors and strops that I have been meaning to get online, and spent my off hours merrily honing and stropping and conditioning leather.
On the topic of Isopropyl(sp) alcohol, isn't 70% the preferred antiseptic level? I thought 90 was actually TOO high, as it evaporates before it has enough time in contact to be effective?

The razor/strop in question from my OP have been quarantined, even though they were well cleaned, just to be on the safe side.
Now, I would love to hear from some of the forge members, as to their opinion on how repeated sterilization at 300-375 degrees might effect temper?

I'm not a metal smith, but I do know damage mechanisms as part of my job. 375F isn't hot enough to affect a temper, I believe that shouldn't be a concern till you're around 500-600F for carbon & low-allow steels. The main concern is thermal fatigue. Since the edge is so much thinner it'll cool and contract faster than the spine, which causes microscopic cracks to form. Eventually, over enough cycles, enough of them form to start joining & that's when the problems start. The way to avoid it is to slow the heating/cooling process so the entire razor heats/cools and expands/contracts at the same rate. Usually the easiest way to do this is in controlled steps. Say the hold is at 350F, after the hold you'd turn it down to 325F & let it sit 5 minutes to allow temps to even out across the whole blade, then drop it another 25 for 5 minutes & so on. That'd be a 30 minute process to get it down to 200F, at which point it'd be perfectly safe to take it out & let it cool normally in still air. Heating would go the same way, 25 degrees at a time in 5 minute steps until you reach the hold temperature. Clearly this can't be done in a normal household oven as temperatures go up & down a great deal. Induction coils are out because temperatures change too quickly. You'd need an oven pretty much purpose-built where you can finely control temperatures, which isn't really worth the money for most people, myself included. Another good gadget to include if you chose to spend the money would be a laser temp gun so you could compare temperatures at the edge against the spine to know when it's ready to step down.

Bleach will destroy all dna/rna on the blade.

so let me get this straight lol one if im traveling take my shavette not my real SR "I came up with that one cause I dont want any one taking/braking my Stuff and blades are disposal". Next if I get a razor off ebay or something and clean it and prep it and then use barbacide clean it off and then put it up and way for about a month in a sun lit place and after all that repeat with the barbacide and then hone and strope and I should be good to use? I would much wreathe be over kill then under kill. :overkill:

Ordinary household chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite, Clorox) diluted 1 part bleach liquid with 9 parts water is the cheapest most readily available widely effective disinfectant. It is used at much lower concentrations to treat swimming pool water. However, it is important to consider whether it will also adversely affect the razor's blade or scale material. Strong chlorine bleach solution removes or fades color in clothing and can also destroy the structural strength of cloth. It is easy to damage the finish of carbon steel razors. Polished carbon steel knives immediately become discolored upon contact with onion, lemon, and cooked meat juice, and vinegar.

I would wash any type of disinfectant used off my razors as soon as possible after disinfection, even if I thought it to be unlikely to damage the razor and then clean, dry, and protectively coat the razor paying particular attention to the area between the shank and scales around the pivot. I would clean a DE razor in Scrubbing Bubbles after disinfection.

Consultation with persons very experienced with razor restoration should help resolve any questions about a disinfectant selected and its potential for razor damage. Otherwise, I would stick with a short dip of the blade and possibly the scales in Barbicide, unless I had good first hand information available concerning the safety in use of another product on my razors. Barbicide is isopropyl alcohol, alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride, and sodium nitrite diluted with water. A short bath is all that is needed for disinfection. Leaving most razors in Barbicide or other disinfectants for a long time would probably result in corrosive razor damage. It is important to know how to use a particular product and its limitations to prevent possible razor damage.

To sum it up, before first use, clean newly acquired used razors, briefly disinfect them using an appropriate product, and then restore or maintain them in the usual manner. The cleaning and disinfection is quick, restoration and honing takes more time.:)

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Originally Posted by rimmini

Bleach will destroy all dna/rna on the blade.

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