Can a SR be not sharp enough?

I've been straight shaving for almost 2 months now and have been noticing some things. I dont always shave with a SR because of time constraints, so when time prohibits I use a DE. My typical SR shave can take the better part of a half hour for 3 passes. However, even with a 3 pass SR shave I dont get as smooth as I do with a 2 pass DE shave. Because of this Im becoming a bit concerned that maybe my face isnt cut out for straight razor shaving.

Im also noticing that I cant really do an ATG pass without alot of tugging and pulling and discomfort. Part of this, I know is my lather drying out, which Im still trying to rectify by different methods of building lather. One thing Im wondering is, can a SR be not sharp enough? Now, Im not talking about being dull, Im talking about a razor that is incredibly sharp but just not sharp enough for a persons particular liking. Im wondering if I need a razor that is sharper than what I've been using, which by the way, is definitely sharp and shave ready. I ask this because a fresh blade in my DE produces the smoothest shave I've ever had, as well as a fresh blade in my Shavette produces a nice smooth shave as well.

So Im a bit lost here. Im figuring its probably that Im going to need to learn to hone very soon and learn to hone my razors to a level of sharpness that rivals a new DE blade. Or am I just being retarded here and over thinking everything.

Yes, There are different levels of "Sharpness" (dependent on the razor itself *) also there are different types of "Finishes" as well as different type of razors..

As you keep walking down the straight razor path you will begin to narrow down what is going to work on your face the best..

BTW it takes some people quite a bit of time and practice to do a true ATG pass with a SR if at all :)



* A razor's actual micron level of sharpness is dertimined by Steel, Grind, Honing, and Stropping it isn't quite so easy to nail down...

I realize now that this is a really hard concept for me to elaborate on.

I have this thought that a razor should be so sharp that it glides across my face and removes hair with little to no felt pressure of the blade on my face, in any direction. With my DE, I can get that. The comb of the razor and the blade just seem to skim the shaving cream off my face, as well as the hair, but I really dont feel it doing any work. However, with my SR, no matter the angle I can feel that its there on my face. I have to apply a slight pressure and use more of an overlapping scraping type motion to seem to really get the hair off, but I know this thing is sharp as hell cause I can watch it pop hairs on my hair at will. However, the hair on my face is much more coarse so that could play a factor I suppose.

I know the ATG pass is a difficult thing to master, but I can pull it off to a certain degree with my Shavette so I would think that I would be able to pull it off with a regular straight as well. However I have seen some say that the ultimate test of a razors sharpness comes from how well it performs ATG. Could it be that I really just require blades that sharp to be able to get a good shave?

I just really dont want to go back to just shaving with a DE all the time. I really enjoy SR shaving and want to keep at it, but it seems a bit daunting right now trying to figure this current predicament out.

Brand and type of razor ????


Keep in mind that the actual "Sharpness" difference between a DE and a SR is very very very small IF the SR is honed to it's max and stropped correctly..

Note the big "if" there are a multitude of variables that have to happen to get a SR at it's full potential :)

Many people love to use the saying "It ain't rocket science" and that is more correct then they imagine, this is more of an art then science to get those effortless comfortable shaves many of the old timers brag about..

One of the things you’re used to and probably take for granted is the leverage from the handle of your DE and shortness of the blade. A SR does not have that same leverage and as such you feel more resistance than you might feel from a DE. Also, there are very specific techniques that you will need to master in order to get as good or better a shave than your DE. It sounds like a challenge but that’s the fun part. I can’t tell you exactly what YOU need to do since everyone needs to do different things. But I can assure you that I thought the same as you did when I started. In the back of my mind I kept thinking that this was an amusing little hobby but won’t ever rival the quality of shaves that I get from my DE. I’ve since blown that theory out of the water. My shaves now are BETTER than what I was able to attain with a DE. If you stick with it, you can do it.

Right now, I've been using a 7/8 G. Wostenholm Celebrated IXL 1/4 hollow. I have two others that I have not been able to use yet because they were no where near sharp enough when I got them, bordering on being flat dull. So those are with a local guy being fixed up for me. Im not entirely sure what they have been honed on as the Wostenholm Im using was honed by the gentleman who is fixing up my other two. So I cant comment on what they have been honed on. Stropping has been done on a latigo strop.

I know this may come off as arrogant, but I dont entirely believe that its bad technique because if I can get a good shave with a shavette, I should be able to get a good to, at the very least, decent shave from a SR.

Part of the problem is that you are comparing Apples and Oranges between the Wosty 1/4 hollow and a Shavette..

The Wosty is designed for smooth comfortable inertia driven passes, the steel is relatively soft compared to many of the newer Extreme Hollows..

If you want a SR that is close in performance to a Shavette you have to chase that style of edge, basically a Extreme Hollow grind probably a Solingen or NY brand that has hard steel and can hold onto a Wicked Sharp edge without getting harsh...

You might have to look into using pastes depending on what hones are in the mix to get way down on the actual micron size of the edge. The extreme hollow will allow the blade to flex with the contours of your face allowing for an even closer shave..


Keep in mind many people get very close shaves with the older Sheffield steel, as it fits their face, but if you are getting very good shaves off a Shavette and like them, then that is what you should target your SR purchases after.. Later once you master the techniques then you can explore the other types and grinds..

Been at it for a while now, probably approaching my hundredth shave. Some shaves i get BBS, others less than perfect, and i still nick myself occasionally. Shaved with a DE recently, and i feel now i get less irritation and it's more comfortable with a straight. It certainly is an art, and alot of variables, one being the level of sharpness, but well worth the time and effort.

From personal experience it took me a lot longer than 2 months to get a shave nearing the equal of what I can get from a DE. Everyone learns at a different rate though. There are so many different components that go into getting a very good straight razor shave that small deficiencies in technique, stropping, blade sharpness and lather can combine to give a less than optimal shave. It all does eventually come together.

I have some razors that I do better with ATG than with others and I do believe the ones that do well have a tiny bit better sharpness. All my razors perform WTG and XTG passes well but the AGT pass separates the men from the boys among the blades for sharpness.

I would think experience with a shavette should be a help in transitioning to straights but I have never used one. The thing that you have to do with straights that you don't have to do with shavettes is strop the blade. Even if you don't nick the strop you could still be dulling the blade stropping. When you do get your honed up razors back try a shave without stropping. The next shave strop the razor and if it shaves less well you know you are loosing some sharpness in stropping.

It is frustrating when you hit a certain level and can't seem to improve on it but you have to do a process of elimination of variables to see where the trouble spots are. You might have more than one area the needs tweaking.

Bob

If your face and beard work better with DE blades in a Shavette, step up to the Feather SS with Feather blades. If you want the feeling of the blade just sliding across your face effortlessly dooming whiskers, the Feather SS will do that for you.

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Originally Posted by ace

If your face and beard work better with DE blades in a Shavette, step up to the Feather SS with Feather blades. If you want the feeling of the blade just sliding across your face effortlessly dooming whiskers, the Feather SS will do that for you.

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+1 To ace's comment about the Feather. When you are starting out there is so much to master. 100 shaves from now you will be amazed at what a better edge you will get from stropping for instance.
Don't get me wrong, my gssixgun restored/honed Crown & Sword shaves make my whole day.
But when traveling or a little pressed for time I go to the consistent edge that I get from the Feather and I wished I had put one in my rotation earlier.

Glen's suggestion of a Full Hollow Solingen brings back memories for me. When I was starting/struggling to learn to shave I bought a Chas. Randal/Capelle Hardware Solingen 6/8 from a member in the classifieds. It was magic, I could shave my chin to BBS in two passes. It was the right razor for me at the time - a perfectly tuned edge (that I had not bungled with bad stropping)

You will get there, and you will get there soon, and it will be worth the effort...

i have a 5/8 peaso solinger extra hollow that absolutely sings, and the few times the beard has come off will easily do atg if i've done my part stropping. it also is very good for practise using a light touch.

I haven't read everyone else's posts, mainly because I want my opinion to be 'untainted' :D

I don't actually feel my straight razor is 'sharper' than a the DE I use. I only have 6 straights and one DE and use one blade (Astra Superior Platinum), so it's not like a have a wealth and depth of experience. I get what feels like a closer shave with the DE, mainly due, I feel, to the manoeuvrability (I can get 100 ATG on each hair with the DE). However, a shave with a straight 'lasts' longer and I generally enjoy it more. I don't know why a DE shave FEELS better initially, but doesn't 'LAST' as long; it just does (for me).

I don't only like a straight shave for the 'uniqueness' and quaintness of it, but because the tactile experience of actually using a DE is more pleasing to me than using a DE; though a DE is nice too. It's like the difference between a manual (stick shift) and an automatic.

For me, I'm not after just a close shave, I'm after the whole experience.

I recall seeing an ad for a shave cream that apparently has the ability to inhibit hair growth. It's probably a wonderfully fine product; I've never used it, but I thought 'You don't get it. Guys who love shaving want to shave MORE, not less!' and that would be whether with a DE or a straight, because the act is self is as valuable as the result.

Carl

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

...because the tactile experience of actually using a DE is more pleasing to me than using a DE; though a DE is nice too...

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I meant of actually using a straight, of course :)

TexasShaver, I'm glad you posted this thread. I have been thinking the same thing the last two days. I just began shaving with a Boker King Cutter purchased from SRD last week. I started out with extreme razor burn like no other after the first day...chalked that one up to way too much pressure, the poor lather from my Geo F. Trumper's Eucris soap (I'm going to make a separate thread for that one) and a small allergic reaction from the soap (as evidenced by a rash on my inner forearm when I was testing my lather). The second day the razor burn was a little better. I skipped using the SR the third and fourth day do give my face a break. I thought for a second that maybe I messed up my stropping, but I've been stropping knives for a couple years and can get them hair popping sharp. Either way, I thought the razor was not sharp enough for the same reasons TexasShaver stated in his initial post, but I've heard nothing but great things about Glenn's honing and his honing concepts/techniques are the same as mine for woodworking chisels, plane blades and knives and I know my sharpening works for those items. Furthermore, the razor pops hairs off my arm and nicks me well enough without my immediate knowledge.

Yesterday and today I was actually able to solely use a SR for a good shave without having to clean up with my Mach III. My focus these last two days have been on light pressure and blade angle. I still get a little razor burn, but it's better. My main concern has been the relative sharpness of the blade. I know the blade is sharp; however, I still have to apply enough pressure on the ATG pass under and on my chin that I end up nicking myself and causing a little razor burn. If I ease off the pressure, the blade doesn't glide through the hair like I seem to see on Youtube videos and how I imagine from other threads; instead it catches and/or skips. I know there's definitely technique issues here as I learn the proper blade angle; however, I still can't help thinking that maybe this type of SR may not be the right type for my beard growth or not sharp enough.

TexasShaver, K37--

It sounds like both of you know what *sharp* is. If I'm reading you correctly, your issues have more to do with the smoothness of the stroke. Smooth, short strokes (at the correct angle, of course) lead to a great shave; awkward pushed or pulled strokes where you have to muscle through the beard lead to irritation as well as a bad shave that needs touching up.

Against-the-grain strokes are of course more prone to be muscled through, especially when using a straight is not yet second nature (and like all muscular skills, it takes tens of hours done correctly before this is achieved).

My recommendation is twofold:

1 - Lubricate! Try applying a thin layer of oil to your face before you lather up. I use Art of Shaving oil, and as I was learning to use a straight this was invaluable for a smooth, consistent and effortless gliding stroke. Even now that I'm feeling fairly confident, I wouldn't dream of shaving without it, especially for the against-the-grain pass(es). Olive oil--the one used for cooking--is also OK. Even in the finishing stages of a shave, when a spot feels a bit prickly to the touch, I dab a little oil there and do a pass with the straight, even without lathering up. This helps immensely to keep the stroke gliding, light and effortless (and preventing razor burn), also because I have a tough beard.

In this vein, I also put a little squirt of liquid Vaseline into the shaving mug before I build up the lather. So, even if my lather were to dry out on my face, it would still be somewhat lubricated.

2 - Don't judge (yet) your shaving skills by how you do tough spots. Your cheeks and neck are a lot easier to shave well than your chin, upper lip and behind the jaw--that's just a fact. Aim for building up your against-grain stroke skills on the easier spots, and once you consistently achieve a nice BBS result with no razor burn there, then you can start turning up your expectations with how you deal with chin, upper lip and jaw. And always pull your skin while shaving.

The first few weeks I used a straight, I kept my single-edge Gem Leather Catcher handy for finishing the tough spots--I didn't expect I would do them well with a straight razor, no shame in that whatsoever. No point turning shaving into an ordeal just because of too-high-too-soon expectations! :gl:

Thank you for the suggestions! I'll focus on expectation management and getting a good pre-shave lubrication. I tried skin food under my shave cream this morning and that seemed to help a little; however, my shaving cream was still drying out on my face. I'll try the oil on trouble spots that I may need to hit a third and fourth time.

I'll add my 2¢.

I initially moved from my Mach III to a DE because I'd heard that the single blade could reduce, if not eliminate, razor burn. Within two weeks of making the switch, razor burn was a thing of the past. My shaves weren't great at that time, but eventually they became very nice and irritation free. Then, I decided that I'd like to try my hand at a shavette. Once again, razor burn reared it's head. It took some experimentation with technique and different blades before I was once again shaving comfortably. Then the straight razor bug bit, and I ordered a razor from WhippedDog.com and also bought one from a member on another forum. I learned quite quickly that being handy with a shavette did not directly translate to having the requisite skills for a comfortable and close straight razor shave. It probably took me three or four months to get to where I was totally comfortable with a straight blade. Of course, I shave every other day, so someone who shaves more frequently might catch on faster.

All that being said, my guess is that your technique is lacking. I wish I had some words of advice, but I don't shave ATG..... never have, never will. In fact, I'm a one pass shaver; I do one WTG pass and then touch up any area that I might have missed. What I can tell you, however, is to stick with it. Once you've got another two months worth of shaves under your belt, you'll look back on these troubles and laugh.

Great post TexasShaver, it actually got me to stop lurking! I am 3 months into SR shaving so many of the issues you wrote about are very familiar. Some things that helped me:
1: Paddle strop. I started with a 2 inch hanging strop and hacked it right up. Turns out stropping is not as easy as it looks. The paddle really helped me concentrate on good form and have confidence that I didn't just dull my razor.
2: Try a Hart. I have a variety of grinds but what really helped me not question the sharpness of my SR was a sharp edge that seems to maintains its sharpness longer than my others. Every SR I have behaves differently and as I learn it is nice to rotate back to a SR I know is sharp and delivers very smooth shaves every time. What more could a beginner ask for?
3: Depending on how your whiskers grow, every part of your face may require a different strategy after the first pass. I have facial hair that grows in different directions in different places. In order for me to get an exceptionally smooth shave I have to find the right combo of skin stretching, grips, and angles for each area.