Unusual Joseph Elliot. Anyone seen one like it?

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05-03-2014, 04:26 AM
Voidmonster

Unusual Joseph Elliot. Anyone seen one like it?

Okay, this is more of a show and ask... And when it's me asking if anyone's seen a Joseph Elliot like this, you know it's going to be good...

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con...058171f7f1.jpg

I can't recall ever seeing one with that sort of tang -- and it's fully original, as both the top and the bottom are fully jimped.

The scales on this one are not original, and ideally I'd like to make a new set more in keeping with the original design. The problem is that I have no idea what that was. My intuition is that this was a fancier model, so possibly ivory scales.

Also noteworthy, I think that's not a VR on the blade, but a partial stamp WR, placing this in the 1830-1837 vicinity.
05-03-2014, 04:42 AM
10Pups

Very cool tang. I have a feeling this is going to be a quiet thread :<0) If the V is really a W it sure would put it off center of the crown a bit. Just an observation :<0) You know those marks better than anybody I know. I will be noticing next time I see a W R .
05-03-2014, 04:45 AM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Very cool tang. I have a feeling this is going to be a quiet thread :<0) If the V is really a W it sure would put it off center of the crown a bit. Just an observation :<0) You know those marks better than anybody I know. I will be noticing next time I see a W R .

Heh, yeah, I'm not really expecting to see another example (though really, even non Elliots would be welcome! I'm pretty sure I've seen a Joseph Rodgers with this tang too).

If you right click and 'view image' you can see a high res version that makes all the stamps clearer. There's no doubt a WR would be off center, but look at the other text on the blade face! It's some interestingly... non-professional typesetting!
05-03-2014, 04:58 AM
robert2286

Really nice
05-03-2014, 05:58 AM
Trimmy72

Very cool piece!
05-03-2014, 06:17 AM
mattluthier

2 Attachment(s)

Here's mine with original horn scales and it's clearly marked with a "VR" stamp. I really like the feel of this razor and it shaves great!

Attachment 164847

Attachment 164848
05-03-2014, 08:53 AM
bongo

1 Attachment(s)

I can't tell whether it's a V or W..
Attachment 164853
05-03-2014, 10:23 AM
Hart

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongo

I can't tell whether it's a V or W..
Attachment 164853

I have no knowledge of these razors but the VR is centered under the crown, where a WR would not be.
05-03-2014, 12:22 PM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattluthier

Here's mine with original horn scales and it's clearly marked with a "VR" stamp. I really like the feel of this razor and it shaves great!

Attachment 164847

Attachment 164848

Hurrah! That's exactly what I wanted, with bonus clarification on the crown stamp!

Looks like I was getting thrown by a slightly squidgy pressing (note on mine the crown proportions are off-center too).

VR it is, then!

And classic Elliot scales.
05-03-2014, 12:26 PM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hart

I have no knowledge of these razors but the VR is centered under the crown, where a WR would not be.

If I were to guess what happened, I'd guess the forger rolled the die slightly. The crown itself should be symmetrical, and that distortion made the V ambiguous. Mattluthier's razor cinches it for me.
05-03-2014, 01:30 PM
JimmyHAD

Very interesting and cool blade profile. I don't recall ever seeing it before, unless Matt previously posted his. One way or the other, I had forgotten seeing it if he did. I wonder when I see interesting departures from the norm, on the old Sheffields, if they were pushing the envelope, trying to come up with a more efficient or ergonomic design, or whether they were hoping something unique and different would sell more razors ?
05-03-2014, 01:44 PM
robert2286

Soo... I am interested! What does the vr or wr stand for?
05-03-2014, 01:47 PM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Very interesting and cool blade profile. I don't recall ever seeing it before, unless Matt previously posted his. One way or the other, I had forgotten seeing it if he did. I wonder when I see interesting departures from the norm, on the old Sheffields, if they were pushing the envelope, trying to come up with a more efficient or ergonomic design, or whether they were hoping something unique and different would sell more razors ?

That's a thing I've long wondered about. It had always seemed to me like the radical variation in styles started around 1820, but I've found earlier documentation showing blade designs from 1816, and pretty much every oddball shape was already present. That said, I love me some oddball razor designs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert2286

Soo... I am interested! What does the vr or wr stand for?

As it happens, I've written up a big thing about that over here.
05-03-2014, 03:39 PM
robert2286

Wow! Thanks! Great info
05-20-2014, 07:21 PM
Cantfindarazor

1 Attachment(s)

Joseph Elliot celebrated extra hollow carbon steel

Attachment 166928Came across one couples weeks ago. Almost looks like a motorcycle. Think its carbon steel.
05-20-2014, 07:26 PM
Cantfindarazor

Think it means vulx or vulfix ripper. (VR)
08-06-2014, 08:32 AM
engine46

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert2286

Soo... I am interested! What does the vr or wr stand for?

Voidmonster is right as his article says. W R is for William Rex or King William IV & the V R is for Victoria Regina or Queen Victoria
08-06-2014, 10:23 AM
Maladroit

I think William IV's cipher would have been GR for Gulielmus Rex, the latinized form of William. He was so named on coinage of the period. Also, don't those scales look like celluloid? If they are cell, and aren't later rescales, then the date of the razor is well after the reign of William IV which ended in 1837.
08-06-2014, 10:46 AM
Neil Miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maladroit

I think William IV's cipher would have been GR for Gulielmus Rex, the latinized form of William. He was so named on coinage of the period. Also, don't those scales look like celluloid? If they are cell, and aren't later rescales, then the date of the razor is well after the reign of William IV which ended in 1837.

Absolutely not. WR is William, GR would have been George. That's the recognised convention, in every history book in the UK - and elsewhere, I should imagine, for hundreds of years the 'modern' usage is from early Tudor times (around 1485) - pre-dating even Voidmonster! Period.

As for the scales, the ones in the original post are not original, and the ones in the second pic are horn, so we can't use 'celluloid' as a means of dating, whereas we can definitely use the royal cypher.

Regards,
Neil
08-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Maladroit

Looks like you're right Neil; examples are hard to come by on the web but I'm satisfied WR is correct.
08-06-2014, 10:58 AM
Neil Miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maladroit

Looks like you're right Neil; examples are hard to come by on the web but I'm satisfied WR is correct.

Thanks - I would love to take the kudos for being right, but as I said it dates back to early Tudor times - they are the ones who are correct!

Regards,
Neil
08-06-2014, 11:50 AM
guitstik

Fascinating, simply fascinating.
08-06-2014, 04:06 PM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Absolutely not. WR is William, GR would have been George. That's the recognised convention, in every history book in the UK - and elsewhere, I should imagine, for hundreds of years the 'modern' usage is from early Tudor times (around 1485) - pre-dating even Voidmonster! Period.

Hey now!

That's --

I mean --

Tudors, huh? Alright, fine. That's before my time. By a little bit.
08-06-2014, 04:49 PM
JimmyHAD

Speaking of Tudors .......... Wars of the Roses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdj6LH-hvsQ
08-06-2014, 07:43 PM
engine46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

Hey now!

That's --

I mean --

Tudors, huh? Alright, fine. That's before my time. By a little bit.

Awww don't let that get ya, it's just a little bit, but I must say you're still on top of your game!!! Case closed.
08-07-2014, 01:20 PM
Neil Miller

I'm afraid I do not agree - I think it is VR.

Regards,
Neil
08-07-2014, 03:51 PM
Euclid440

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

That's a thing I've long wondered about. It had always seemed to me like the radical variation in styles started around 1820, but I've found earlier documentation showing blade designs from 1816, and pretty much every oddball shape was already present. That said, I love me some oddball razor designs!

As it happens, I've written up a big thing about that over here.

Zak thanks for the link, great info and love the Gallery link.

Great photos and impressive razors.

Marty
08-07-2014, 04:20 PM
Phrank

1 Attachment(s)

Great thread...this is my Greaves with the WR stamp:

Attachment 175338
08-07-2014, 08:36 PM
engine46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Zak thanks for the link, great info and love the Gallery link.

Great photos and impressive razors.

Marty

Yeah, he does some outstanding research! A big thanks for Zak!!!!
08-07-2014, 08:52 PM
Voidmonster

Quote:

Originally Posted by engine46

Yeah, he does some outstanding research! A big thanks for Zak!!!!

I appreciate that! But truth is, I learned most of what I know from Neil, and it's been Neil kicking me in the behind that's encouraged me to do better.
08-07-2014, 09:37 PM
engine46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

I appreciate that! But truth is, I learned most of what I know from Neil, and it's been Neil kicking me in the behind that's encouraged me to do better.

Well, ok a big thanks to Neil also. I need a good kick every now n then but then I learn what I know from the books I have. They are the best research I have & I rely upon them whenever I can. This forum is the best forum I know of which is why I'm a member on here & I don't have time for any of the other ones. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here & I'm glad to be a part of it. A big thanks goes out to Lynn for starting it!

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