Wootz! Joseph Rodgers "Indian Steel"

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I'd never seen any blades but Stoddart stamped with the Sanskrit 'wootz. In all likelihood, the blade is made with steel refined from Indian ore. I'm guessing early 1840's. It's got an arris spine (between the rounded quill profile and the sharper swaged back) and that shallow little hollow point. The thumb notch and back are jimped with the kind of quality cut you'd expect on a good file.

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It's a really beefy 7/8 blade. It's the Sanskrit that really grabbed my attention (though having a 7/8 Rodgers wedge surely is no great hardship). That's the same stamp (with simplification) that James Stodart used (seen here, the J. Stodart card at the bottom of Neil's post).

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My guess of early 1840's is due to the combination of the Sanskrit and the Rodgers stamp. I'm working on the theory that having the wootz stamp pushes for earlier and the 'Their Majesties' is Victorian, so taken together early Victoria but post Albert. That's all just a guess though. For all I know Rodgers was using the 'Their Majesties' stamp during William III's reign or even George IV. My money is on Victoria though.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8301/7...55d76787_c.jpg

This is not a dainty blade. It's not quite the heaviest I've got (at least I don't think -- I haven't checked) but it's a solid chunk of steel (wootz!). Obviously it doesn't exhibit the watered pattern of Damascus steel, but as far as I've seen, none of the English-forged steels derived from Indian ore did.

Very cool blade. I like it.

It just seems that the old ones are so much more interesting than the new ones. Very nice!

That looks to be one serious piece of steel. Thanks for sharing it with us! :tu

That is a really cool razor. I have a W&B 'Fine India Steel' razor. Helluva razor too, though not uncommon. Do you think it really is India steel and not just Sheffield ore with an etch designed to give it an exotic flair that would make it sell ? Wouldn't change the shave for me but I would like it better if I knew for sure that it was really India Steel. :)

Nice blade, but that is in all likely hood not wootz.
India steel, silver steel, magnetic, damascus, etc have all been used as marketing terms.
It could be any of the alloys they experimented with (hence the sanskrit) but to call it wootz you need some more evidence / confirmation from a metallurgist.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

That is a really cool razor. I have a W&B 'Fine India Steel' razor. Helluva razor too, though not uncommon. Do you think it really is India steel and not just Sheffield ore with an etch designed to give it an exotic flair that would make it sell ? Wouldn't change the shave for me but I would like it better if I knew for sure that it was really India Steel. :)

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Ore was pretty regularly imported (it really helps to be on a river that can support huge barges) and the government was certainly doing a ... brisk ... business with India at the time. It's not remotely out of the question that Rodgers was using actual imported raw material from India. It's definitely a thing that was done. I've got a handful of 'Fine India Steel' razors, but this is the only one I've ever seen with sanskrit on it.

In any event, the main interest for me is the stamp. It's a humongous wedge. It's gonna be a pain to hone anyway, I don't really need it to be super awesome steel. :)

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Nice blade, but that is in all likely hood not wootz.
India steel, silver steel, magnetic, damascus, etc have all been used as marketing terms.
It could be any of the alloys they experimented with (hence the sanskrit) but to call it wootz you need some more evidence / confirmation from a metallurgist.

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Well no, wootz is just the Tamil word for steel and I don't think it's unreasonable to think the raw ore came from India. It's hair-splitting, I know. But the famous aspect -- the patterning -- comes from the processing, not the ore. This blade has bog-standard carbon steel oxidation.

Rodgers didn't begin their own steel refining until 1887, so all the material they made razors from was sourced from other local firms, and there were definitely folks in Sheffield making commercialized steel using material imported from India.

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Hah, I got a lot more certain of things between the two replies above because I was shooting from the hip in replying to Jimmy, then I went back to original sources because I wasn't sure about Rodgers producing their own steel, and in the process read a lot more about the early use of wootz imported from India.

So yeah, I think it's reasonable to think the razor is made from imported metal. Just not prepared in the way that makes it what we think of as wootz.

The ore / raw steel might come from india indeed. That would make some sense, since the empire had a strong influence there.

So it may have traces of vanadium in it, along with anything else to make an alloy.
For it to be wootz it would need to be processed like wootz, in order to grow the dendritic structures that give wootz its distinct visual and mechanical properties.

I remember reading an article that, IIRC,said Wootz was made in small batches in India ? Here is a Wiki article on the topic. Go down page to get past the Samurai sword stuff to find the pertinent portion of the article. BTW, I had a Joe Chandler Wootz. IIRC Mike Blue did the heat treat on it. Perhaps he could enlighten us on Wootz because he probably knows more about steel than anyone on this board.

Here is another article I googled that has pix and an informative bit of text .....

http://www.buffaloriverforge.com/wootz/wootz.htm

would it be bad form to ask what you plan on doing with it?

I am just curious if you keep that as is, or restore it, and do you put it in a collection for display, or use it? It is a personal thing, and there is no wrong answer in my book...I am just curious what you choose for that beaut.

I would require some time to decide, I think.

If it was mine I would hit it with semichrome, flitz or whatever metal polish on a paper towel and then hone it and leave that well earned patina as is. Just my preference. YMMV.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

If it was mine I would hit it with semichrome, flitz or whatever metal polish on a paper towel and then hone it and leave that well earned patina as is. Just my preference. YMMV.

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Not that anyone should care what this noob thinks, but I think I would hone it as is, shave once (possibly twice) with it, then put it on display.

I understand guys that restore and rescale (I have done it)...However, I think there is merit to the thought that the scales (no matter how bad they may be) are part of the story, and once replaced...those chapters are missing.

I really like that razor...the only way it could be cooler is if *my* ancestors passed it down to me.

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Originally Posted by unit

I understand guys that restore and rescale (I have done it)...However, I think there is merit to the thought that the scales (no matter how bad they may be) are part of the story, and once replaced...those chapters are missing.

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My sentiments exactly. :tu As long as there are no cracks all the way through, or at the pivot, I keep 'em as is.

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Originally Posted by Voidmonster

...and the government was certainly doing a ... brisk ... business with India at the time.

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That's about as tongue in cheek as one could get and stay politically correct. Even so, that's all history. Wootz production in India had ended some few hundred years before India began exporting iron or or steel. There could have been some processed wootz tossed onto an ore boat I suppose. I strongly suspect back then that no archeometallurgist was snooping around looking for wootz and the fellows loading the boat would have only said "this is easier to load in these lumps than with shovels..." But, none of us can prove any of that. Even in the famous UK crucible steel, a wootz billet would have been lost in a 100 lb batch.

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...But the famous aspect -- the patterning -- comes from the processing, not the ore. This blade has bog-standard carbon steel oxidation.

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I agree with this assessment of the pictures. There should be some pattern to see in the oxidation, at least a hint. But it could be polished, then etched if you really really had to know. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bruno

The ore / raw steel might come from india indeed. That would make some sense, since the empire had a strong influence there.

So it may have traces of vanadium in it, along with anything else to make an alloy.
For it to be wootz it would need to be processed like wootz, in order to grow the dendritic structures that give wootz its distinct visual and mechanical properties.

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This is the curse of being a writer, I have a permanent case of L'esprit d'escalier. Now that I've sat on it for a day I know better how to say what I mean about it.

I think it's very likely that the people who made it thought it was made of wootz, hence the sanskrit on the blade. By this point in history we've got a lot clearer idea of what the stuff was -- this razor ain't it -- but I'm guessing that whoever bought the steel for Joseph Rodgers thought it was.

My basic thinking here is that the earlier the blade was made, the more likely it was actual imported material and not just ad-copy. At the very least, I've never seen another (non-Stodart) razor with the Sanskrit on it.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I remember reading an article that, IIRC,said Wootz was made in small batches in India ? Here is a Wiki article on the topic. Go down page to get past the Samurai sword stuff to find the pertinent portion of the article. BTW, I had a Joe Chandler Wootz. IIRC Mike Blue did the heat treat on it. Perhaps he could enlighten us on Wootz because he probably knows more about steel than anyone on this board.

Here is another article I googled that has pix and an informative bit of text .....

WOOTZ AND CRUCIBLE STEEL

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There are a few swords and daggers over here that are just breathtaking. I, personally, would feel REALLY icky buying anything like that. Too many friends in archaeology and anthropology. But I sure do like to look at them.

I sure wouldn't mind having a real wootz... well, anything.... And indeed Mike Blue had things to say. :)

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Originally Posted by unit

would it be bad form to ask what you plan on doing with it?

I am just curious if you keep that as is, or restore it, and do you put it in a collection for display, or use it? It is a personal thing, and there is no wrong answer in my book...I am just curious what you choose for that beaut.

I would require some time to decide, I think.

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It's going to go into my regular shaving rotation. I'm a fan of the hunkahunka-style wedge, and all my Rodgers steel shaves great.

As for restoration, nothing but 2k sandpaper and metal polish. I want the patina, but I also want the gritty stuff off. :)

See my reply below to Mike on one other thing I may do...

The scales are warped and badly reglued at the toe, so those I'm going to take fully apart, soak, straighten, polish and reassemble. I've done enough horn resto at this point to know that these scales are going to be obscenely beautiful when cleaned and polished. They're going to wear their age like a General wears his medals.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

That's about as tongue in cheek as one could get and stay politically correct. Even so, that's all history. Wootz production in India had ended some few hundred years before India began exporting iron or or steel. There could have been some processed wootz tossed onto an ore boat I suppose. I strongly suspect back then that no archeometallurgist was snooping around looking for wootz and the fellows loading the boat would have only said "this is easier to load in these lumps than with shovels..." But, none of us can prove any of that. Even in the famous UK crucible steel, a wootz billet would have been lost in a 100 lb batch.

I agree with this assessment of the pictures. There should be some pattern to see in the oxidation, at least a hint. But it could be polished, then etched if you really really had to know. ;)

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I know that the Royal Society got a batch of wootz billets in the 1790's, it's what they had Stodart working on. For his part, Stodart claimed that using the rhodium and iridium+osmium steel alloys he was able to create steel that took the classic wootz pattern. To the best of my knowledge none of his samples are around (and the two razors that showed up here on the forum certainly didn't exhibit wootz patterning).

After reading every word I can find about Stodart, I've come to think of him as one of those guys whose enthusiasm is just a little contagious. Maybe the results he and Faraday were getting weren't quite as good as he thought they were, but he was such a brilliant guy and so convinced, that he convinced other people too even when the evidence wasn't as good as that.

Then again, one of the writers for the 1832 Edinburgh encyclopedia claimed to have samples that Stodart had given him and ten years on the control steel was patinated and Stodart's alloys weren't. That was fully ten years after Stodart's death. I hesitate to try and get CSquared to etch either of the Stodart razors he's got. :)

As for this Rodgers, it's an easy enough thing to polish up a spot on the pile side and etch it a little. Just to see what happens. I'm guessing what happens is the same thing that happens to all other carbon steel.

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...As for this Rodgers, it's an easy enough thing to polish up a spot on the pile side and etch it a little. Just to see what happens. I'm guessing what happens is the same thing that happens to all other carbon steel.

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And don't be entirely surprised if this turns out to be a Sheffield cast steel that shows a little whiff of dendritic formation. It was very popular, well-produced material and depending on the heat history could have some banding present. While I think it looks cool when it's found, it is a false trail for some that hope for wootz-ish stuff.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

And don't be entirely surprised if this turns out to be a Sheffield cast steel that shows a little whiff of dendritic formation. It was very popular, well-produced material and depending on the heat history could have some banding present. While I think it looks cool when it's found, it is a false trail for some that hope for wootz-ish stuff.

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It does indeed exhibit patterning, but like you say, it's the same as any number of other crucible steels I've seen. A couple of my Wade & Butchers have much more prominent Brownian-motion tracers on'em.

Attachment 103941

The scratches from some previous cleaning were deep enough that I wimped out on the polish and just did 600-12,000 with metal polish on a small area, but I think it's enough to see what the metal did with a brief visit into Mister Phosphoric Acid.

Nice old razor.
But I'm very doubting, that it's wootz. IMO.
Rodgers used the "Their Majesties" stamp during Queen Victoria reign too.

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Originally Posted by manah

Nice old razor.
But I'm very doubting, that it's wootz. IMO.
Rodgers used the "Their Majesties" stamp during Queen Victoria reign too.

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Have you seen any other Rodgers razors with the Sanskrit stamp? Or any other razors at all? (other than the Stodart ones)

Reading a lot of period literature on the subject has just confused me further on what was and was not considered wootz, but I'm certain this razor isn't what we call wootz. And I didn't really think it would be when I bought it, I just thought it was neat that this razor had the Sanskrit on it.