Kamisori addiction

Well guys,

I think my RAD/KAD is cured for some time now. I still have 2 more japanese razors en-route but I just got a package in from aframestokyo.

Attachment 107691
From left to right:

Hisha Kaku 6/8 folding Kamisori NOS
Kanetaka 58mm Blue steel
Kanetaka 50mm White steel
Iwasaki 50mm

From my first impressions, the Hisha Kaku and the Iwasaki (both from aframestokyo) are by far the best of the bunch, but then again you get what you pay for. The Kanetakas are great but the Blue steel has been a bear to hone!

Wow! There is no cure.

Blue steel not that hard to hone, what hones do you use?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Blue steel not that hard to hone, what hones do you use?

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I am now using an Asagi and a Wakasa. I think a part of it was lack of experience and the fact that these blades don't sit as perfectly as an Iwasaki on the hone. They're very sharp and probably shave ready to many people's standards but because I have such coarse hair, I need a very sharp blade so it's taking me a while to get them where I want them to be.

Hindsight though, I think you're right. It's not that bad to hone, just a little more work than the white steel razor.

If they're super hard, the trouble with blue steel is if you're using a natural hone, it prefers a stone that releases grit. On a razor, a hone that releases grit keeps you from getting a good finished edge, and it has a more persistent wire edge than your iwasaki will.

If you finish it with a few swipes on chromium oxide (hey, iwasaki himself uses diamonds, so call it no foul to step things up) you'll have a much easier time getting the edge where you want it. Good blue steel should be weeper sharp off of chromium oxide.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

If they're super hard, the trouble with blue steel is if you're using a natural hone, it prefers a stone that releases grit. On a razor, a hone that releases grit keeps you from getting a good finished edge, and it has a more persistent wire edge than your iwasaki will.

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This is true but with the correct stone (hardness wise ) it will work just fine. Kamisoris tend to finish better on softer stone and Wakasa(what the OP has) is the perfect stone.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

If they're super hard, the trouble with blue steel is if you're using a natural hone, it prefers a stone that releases grit. On a razor, a hone that releases grit keeps you from getting a good finished edge, and it has a more persistent wire edge than your iwasaki will.

If you finish it with a few swipes on chromium oxide (hey, iwasaki himself uses diamonds, so call it no foul to step things up) you'll have a much easier time getting the edge where you want it. Good blue steel should be weeper sharp off of chromium oxide.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

This is true but with the correct stone (hardness wise ) it will work just fine. Kamisoris tend to finish better on softer stone and Wakasa(what the OP has) is the perfect stone.

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Thanks guys, Maybe i'll try fresh with my Naniwas and finish on the Wakasa stone? The razor is sharp, probably shave ready to many's standards but I'd like to get a better edge on it. I've gotten the white steel blade now to a satisfactory edge too, so lets hope I can apply that to the blue steel :)

That's the route I would take. The alumina in the naniwas should "plow the field level" and make a good prep for the wakasa. there is some chromium and tungsten carbides in blue steel, but compared to a lot of western steels, not much. The toughness/hardness of those carbides (they are both harder than the silica that is in most natural stones) is what creates the issues with getting great keenness with natural stones sometimes. Using the naniwas beforehand is good prep and stacks the deck in your favor.

Thanks to this thread, btw, I ordered an iwasaki kamisori. I think it's contagious.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

there is some chromium and tungsten carbides in blue steel, but compared to a lot of western steels, not much.

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We have no idea what is in that steel really, Iwasaki adds things to it to change the characteristincs to make it close to Tamahagane in qualities. Tamahagane is really pure steel (99%) from what I have seen in documentaries about Katana.

I think we're getting the blue steel kanetaka and the iwasaki mixed up. At least some of iwasaki's steels have swedish steel and some have White II.

White #1 and White #2 are very close to what tamahagane would be if it was perfect, except their carbon content and quality is a lot more consistent and they are a lot easier to produce. The best tamahagane should still be better for keeness if it is in the same hardness level and carbon content, though.

I think the influx of swedish and english steels in the early 1900s was pretty instructive, but it may have been more of a cost issue than anything else. In the tool world, some of the english steels bring the next highest price to tools that have genuine tamahagane for their cutting edges, but So mentioned in several places (I don't know if on his website, but I think on Harrelson Stanley's) that tamahagane was overrated in woodworking tools. Razors get less adhesive and abrasive wear, though, so the comparison might be different.

I still haven't seen anything definitive about tamahagane - how it holds up in durability or how absolutely sharp it gets compared to white #1 and #2, or assab K steels, I'm wondering if you didn't tell people what was in a razor if they could tell the difference. In woodworking tools, there were gobs of tools labeled Tamahagane that just had mass produced carbon steel in them. I don't think iwasaki would do that, but he may be forge purifying steels to take things out of them and make them more like tamahagane.

The finest steels made in the US and england in the crucible steel process were probably as good or better than tamahagane, and the legendary status of the japanese swords is attributable more to the construction methods than the steel, at least in relative terms to western swords.

I'm as guilty as anyone for spending money, though, but I do wonder if I could tell the differnence between the stuff I spent a lot on vs. the mass-produced vintage US steel or the yasugi steels.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I think we're getting the blue steel kanetaka and the iwasaki mixed up. At least some of iwasaki's steels have swedish steel and some have White II.

White #1 and White #2 are very close to what tamahagane would be if it was perfect, except their carbon content and quality is a lot more consistent and they are a lot easier to produce. The best tamahagane should still be better for keeness if it is in the same hardness level and carbon content, though.

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Iwasaki uses Swedish carbon steel that then he modifies somehow. He does not use White steel, white steel is not at all close to tamahagane in performance, speaking from personal experience. White steel will never take HRC 65-67, tamahagane does with no issues. According to Iwasaki Whit e steel is not high enough quality for them to use.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I still haven't seen anything definitive about tamahagane - how it holds up in durability or how absolutely sharp it gets compared to white #1 and #2, or assab K steels, I'm wondering if you didn't tell people what was in a razor if they could tell the difference. In woodworking tools, there were gobs of tools labeled Tamahagane that just had mass produced carbon steel in them. I don't think iwasaki would do that, but he may be forge purifying steels to take things out of them and make them more like tamahagane.

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I have both Swedish and Tamahagane Iwasaki western straights and I can tell you there is difference.
The tamahagane is full hollow it is in the HRC 65 range, I can flex the edge with a nail but there is absolutely no chipping when honed. It is very wear resistant compared to standard solingen or sheffield steel. The Swedisn steel Iwasakis I have are in the HRC 62 range hollow as well and also pretty tough to hone but easier than the tamahagane one. I have honed a lot of white steel kamisori and they hone easy compared.

White steel is regularly in the RC #65/#66 in top line chisels. Many of the makers claim that their white #1 chisels are 65/66, and their white II chisels are 64/65.

I'd suspect if the tamahagane retained its edge well, it would be chip resistance and not wear resistance if there was relative superiority to yasugi white #1. Abrasive and adhesive wear are avoided by three things - hardness, carbon content and carbides. The advantage of true tamahagane should be chip resistance due to small grain structure and sharpenability at high hardness due to absence of carbides. It is what makes good white #1 so good in bench chisels, but no better than common blue steel in bench chisels. (white steel isn't uncommon, but well done white #1 isn't that common).

If iwasaki's swedish steel kamisori are 62 hardness, it is likely because they do not have the carbon content to bring them to the hardness that white #1 chisels are brought to, but they could make a white #1 razor that would be the equal of tamahagane. The problem with doing that is white #1, like tamahagane, is difficult to work with. Not surprisingly, because white #1 is little different from the highest carbon content tamahagane.

Swedish steel that is below 1.2% carbon content would be easier to work with and promote the idea the tamahagane was far better than any mass produced steel, but it is more likely just a bad comparison because the smiths don't want to work with white #1 or forge purified white #1 that plane makers and chisel makers are willing to work with. I don't blame them for that, it would make a razor that was harder to sharpen than swedish, which is the easiest sharpening japanese steel that I have come across. but that ease in sharpening is probably due to the hardness and not properties of the underlying steel.

The absolute hardest item I have ever dealt with is a white #1 plane made by kikuo kanda, it is so hard that even though it's white steel with a watestu backing, it's fairly difficult to sharpen. And the lamination isn't overly thick, it is just charcoal forged, very high carbon and incredibly hard. It would make a superb razor. If I had to guess at hardness, it is probably 66/67, it has to be on the border of being fragile due to the hardness.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I have honed a lot of white steel kamisori and they hone easy compared.

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Presume they are white #2 kamisori, where the maker has chosen to leave them fairly soft (60-62 hardness)? I have white II chisels that are claimed at 65, and I have white II chisels that a friend and I put on a hardness tester and found to be 61. There is a huge gap in their performance and ease in sharpness just due to the difference in hardness. Esepcially on natural stones.

Just to clarify here, we are only talking about the Kanetakas. When I purchased the Iwasaki, I also ordered an Iwasaki choice stone to go with it and only honed it on that stone. The results were wonderful and the Iwasaki took an edge with no problem.

Right, back to the blue steel, I think the best method is still to clean it up with a synthetic stone and then give it a whack with the natural stone to remove the harsness from the deep grooves the synthetic stone will leave.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I think we're getting the blue steel kanetaka and the iwasaki mixed up. At least some of iwasaki's steels have swedish steel and some have White II.

White #1 and White #2 are very close to what tamahagane would be if it was perfect, except their carbon content and quality is a lot more consistent and they are a lot easier to produce. The best tamahagane should still be better for keeness if it is in the same hardness level and carbon content, though.

I think the influx of swedish and english steels in the early 1900s was pretty instructive, but it may have been more of a cost issue than anything else. In the tool world, some of the english steels bring the next highest price to tools that have genuine tamahagane for their cutting edges, but So mentioned in several places (I don't know if on his website, but I think on Harrelson Stanley's) that tamahagane was overrated in woodworking tools. Razors get less adhesive and abrasive wear, though, so the comparison might be different.

I still haven't seen anything definitive about tamahagane - how it holds up in durability or how absolutely sharp it gets compared to white #1 and #2, or assab K steels, I'm wondering if you didn't tell people what was in a razor if they could tell the difference. In woodworking tools, there were gobs of tools labeled Tamahagane that just had mass produced carbon steel in them. I don't think iwasaki would do that, but he may be forge purifying steels to take things out of them and make them more like tamahagane.

The finest steels made in the US and england in the crucible steel process were probably as good or better than tamahagane, and the legendary status of the japanese swords is attributable more to the construction methods than the steel, at least in relative terms to western swords.

I'm as guilty as anyone for spending money, though, but I do wonder if I could tell the differnence between the stuff I spent a lot on vs. the mass-produced vintage US steel or the yasugi steels.

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I think i read somewhere that modern steels outperform Tamahagane in many respects. With my kitchen knives, its no longer the case that carbon steel is better or harder than stainless, nor are forged knives always better than stamped knives. Technology has closed the gap making mass produced quality much more attainable.

As for the Tamahagane, I believe for its time, it was the best steel and still rivals many quality steels today. Tamahagane is still special from a cultural and historical aspect and is still very valuable. Much the way high-end mercedes are still highly sought after when an Acura could be more reliable with many of the same luxury features.

Another difference is that Tamahagane is only used by the top makers and as such there is a discrepancy between the workmanship of a white steel razor and a Tamahagane (not all makers can get Tamahagane in Japan). So with the forging technique and tempering skill all combined we end up with a better razor.

This is just my opinion and belief though. On a side note, I have a Tamahagane razor coming in soon and I'll be able to better compare it against white, blue, and swedish steel razors.

In applications where wear resistance is the issue (like in planing wood), tamahagane is left behind. For that matter, so is white #1. They are considered finishing planes, because they have a small grain structure and leave a nice surface. But super blue steel and the like, and now powder HSS will plane many more feet of wood before dulling because of the wear resistance provided by the carbides. They are probably easier to heat to high hardness than white #1, too, especially in a commercial environment in large quantities.

I would like to see someone making a white #1 kamisori that wasn't too expensive - and up to proper hardness, but that is probably a lot to ask. Even in the woodworking world, most places producing a lot of something don't like to work with white #1, at least not without charging a lot to do it. There are a lot of better quality makers that will run the hardness of white II up pretty high in tools intended to impact something.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of what makes a razor wear, if it is adhesive/abrasive wear or if it is tiny chipping (which is what generally does in chisels).

I see a lot of descriptions of tamahagane with suspect #s of shaves listed behind them. Kzeroukai competitions let the water out of the bathtub in terms of planing (the adhesive wear is something that purified steel cannot resist), but razors may not wear the same way as either, and maybe not even as an in-between kind of thing.

Nevertheless, if the swedish version is 62 and you do get a version of any type of steel that is properly hardened to 66/67, you'll likely be very pleased with it.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I'd suspect if the tamahagane retained its edge well, it would be chip resistance and not wear resistance

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from what I have seen it is both, no chipping and kind of a pain to sharpen. I have also seen some other Japanese razors that are made from Hitachi Tamahagane that are also really hard and take some effort to hone, but I have not honed enough of each kind to speak for differences.

The nuisance sharpening is a product of hardness, I am glad you said that. If you had told me that it sharpened easier than white II or swede and lasted 10x as long, I might have felt the need to purchase some. I'm still going to hold out for a good white #1 make, forge purified or not.

There is a video online of a group making a very large amount of tamahagane, I wonder if that is the sword society version that hitachi sells.

The story of steels around the world, before the bessemer process, is an interesting one. I don't know that much of it, but I like to learn about as much of it as possible. Definitely is very interesting how places around the world had used the crucible and bessemer type processes long before they were ever commercialized. And also interesting is the history of steel and wrought iron coming from different places in the world when people in some regions had no idea why their steel was no good (i *think* the english had issues with sulfur, and I guess given that the base stock for tamahagane is sometimes referred to as "sand iron", I guess silica for the japanese).

What is the most amazing is that in the pre-chemistry era, people tinkered and came up with processes that did in fact make very good and pure steel when they couldn't have known fully what was going on.

I agree. If you look at the engineering capabilities on a lot of old things. Building, roads, metallurgy, etc. Its quite amazing what good ol' trial and error was able to accomplish.

Now with this thread being lively and all the great input about steels, hardness, and honing coming up I had to go and test out that Iwasaki. Both the Iwasaki and the Blue Steel Kanetaka were honed to HHT and a nicely polished finish and I would have to say that the Iwasaki was the better performer. It just seemed to shave nicer overall. The Kanetaka did a great job too but i much prefer the Iwasaki now.

After I was done, a few runs on the strop and the Iwasaki was passing HHT again (This is very impressive to me as most razors aren't able to handle my hair for more than 1 shave before requiring a touchup... Head shaving for those curious).

So now that i've figured out which one seems to agree with me best, its time to get my post count up so I can put the others on the BST :)

Yet if you have an option to try a real tamahagane razor do so you will find out it is somehow different than anything else, it is very nice experience.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Yet if you have an option to try a real tamahagane razor do so you will find out it is somehow different than anything else, it is very nice experience.

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How do you find them different? Are they a smoother shaver? Hold an edge longer? I have one that should be coming tomorrow so i'm excited to get it honed up and test a shave on it. I've been on a mad hunt to find the "ultimate" razor for myself that can be my go-to razor. So far it seems that the Sheffield wedge razors are easier for me to use but I'm still not over the Japanese steel and blade style yet...

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Originally Posted by fchan

How do you find them different? Are they a smoother shaver? Hold an edge longer?

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They are different on the stones. I can't say anything about edge holding since I do not use one every day, there are stories that barbers could use those razors for hundreds of shaves with no touch ups but are they true who knows.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

there are stories that barbers could use those razors for hundreds of shaves with no touch ups but are they true who knows.

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This story comes from Iwasaki honing manual & to put it in context, it was his praising of linen strops. I don't know if he exaggerated the numbers.

"Recently, there are many people who don’t use a linen strop. An improperly maintained linen can damage your edge, but a well-cared-for linen strop can be a fantastic tool. I personally know two barbers who were each able to shave more than 1,000 people without needing to rehone their razors, through skillful use of linen. It really is best to use a properly prepared linen strop. A razor which won’t shave after being stropped on leather can often be restored to shaving form by proper linen use."

I think one of the iwasaki razors even has a story of over 1000 attached to it.

On a woodworking board, someone told me they used their tamahagane kamisori every day for a year without rehoning it.

I have been able to weed out some of the plane and chisel stories, just because I know how they fail and results from competitions bear out that the modern steels with lots of carbides will always beat a plain steel in a durability contest.

But some reputable dealers and iwasaki have made some pretty big claims about their harder razors, and I can't say too much other than the razor may be the perfect instrument for a super plain carbon steel like tamahagane. I think my hope of getting a white #1 razor just aren't reasonable because no maker is going to go to the trouble of using white #1 and running it to 67 hardness unless they're getting the price they'd get for a tamahagane type steel with the mysticism that surrounds it.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

This story comes from Iwasaki honing manual & to put it in context, it was his praising of linen strops. I don't know if he exaggerated the numbers.

"Recently, there are many people who don’t use a linen strop. An improperly maintained linen can damage your edge, but a well-cared-for linen strop can be a fantastic tool. I personally know two barbers who were each able to shave more than 1,000 people without needing to rehone their razors, through skillful use of linen. It really is best to use a properly prepared linen strop. A razor which won’t shave after being stropped on leather can often be restored to shaving form by proper linen use."

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That explains a lot! Still is a very impressive number.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I think one of the iwasaki razors even has a story of over 1000 attached to it.

On a woodworking board, someone told me they used their tamahagane kamisori every day for a year without rehoning it.

I have been able to weed out some of the plane and chisel stories, just because I know how they fail and results from competitions bear out that the modern steels with lots of carbides will always beat a plain steel in a durability contest.

But some reputable dealers and iwasaki have made some pretty big claims about their harder razors, and I can't say too much other than the razor may be the perfect instrument for a super plain carbon steel like tamahagane. I think my hope of getting a white #1 razor just aren't reasonable because no maker is going to go to the trouble of using white #1 and running it to 67 hardness unless they're getting the price they'd get for a tamahagane type steel with the mysticism that surrounds it.

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there is also another component to the equation here, western Tamahagane Iwasakis are deferentially heat treated which also means there is decently high failure rate (for cutlery it is 1 in 3 blades failure rate), which would make prices higher in general. Not sure if white 1 can go that high in HRC without the same procedure though. I am guessing they used the method to make sure the spine is a bit softer to ensure proper wear during honing, but may be wrong

I'm loving this dialogue guys, very informative and great to hear the legend separated from reality.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

The nuisance sharpening is a product of hardness, I am glad you said that. If you had told me that it sharpened easier than white II or swede and lasted 10x as long, I might have felt the need to purchase some.

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It is not quite like that , which is why they are so unique IMO, the bevel set is easy all the way to the final stage when it suddenly takes a while to get the edge dialed in. I had the same experience with my Hitachi Tamahagane razors only they also chipped on my Chosera 1K, something no other razor in good shape has accomplished so far, that is how hard the steel was.