Thread: Kamisori addiction

White steel is regularly in the RC #65/#66 in top line chisels. Many of the makers claim that their white #1 chisels are 65/66, and their white II chisels are 64/65.

I'd suspect if the tamahagane retained its edge well, it would be chip resistance and not wear resistance if there was relative superiority to yasugi white #1. Abrasive and adhesive wear are avoided by three things - hardness, carbon content and carbides. The advantage of true tamahagane should be chip resistance due to small grain structure and sharpenability at high hardness due to absence of carbides. It is what makes good white #1 so good in bench chisels, but no better than common blue steel in bench chisels. (white steel isn't uncommon, but well done white #1 isn't that common).

If iwasaki's swedish steel kamisori are 62 hardness, it is likely because they do not have the carbon content to bring them to the hardness that white #1 chisels are brought to, but they could make a white #1 razor that would be the equal of tamahagane. The problem with doing that is white #1, like tamahagane, is difficult to work with. Not surprisingly, because white #1 is little different from the highest carbon content tamahagane.

Swedish steel that is below 1.2% carbon content would be easier to work with and promote the idea the tamahagane was far better than any mass produced steel, but it is more likely just a bad comparison because the smiths don't want to work with white #1 or forge purified white #1 that plane makers and chisel makers are willing to work with. I don't blame them for that, it would make a razor that was harder to sharpen than swedish, which is the easiest sharpening japanese steel that I have come across. but that ease in sharpening is probably due to the hardness and not properties of the underlying steel.

The absolute hardest item I have ever dealt with is a white #1 plane made by kikuo kanda, it is so hard that even though it's white steel with a watestu backing, it's fairly difficult to sharpen. And the lamination isn't overly thick, it is just charcoal forged, very high carbon and incredibly hard. It would make a superb razor. If I had to guess at hardness, it is probably 66/67, it has to be on the border of being fragile due to the hardness.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I'd suspect if the tamahagane retained its edge well, it would be chip resistance and not wear resistance

from what I have seen it is both, no chipping and kind of a pain to sharpen. I have also seen some other Japanese razors that are made from Hitachi Tamahagane that are also really hard and take some effort to hone, but I have not honed enough of each kind to speak for differences.

The nuisance sharpening is a product of hardness, I am glad you said that. If you had told me that it sharpened easier than white II or swede and lasted 10x as long, I might have felt the need to purchase some. I'm still going to hold out for a good white #1 make, forge purified or not.

There is a video online of a group making a very large amount of tamahagane, I wonder if that is the sword society version that hitachi sells.

The story of steels around the world, before the bessemer process, is an interesting one. I don't know that much of it, but I like to learn about as much of it as possible. Definitely is very interesting how places around the world had used the crucible and bessemer type processes long before they were ever commercialized. And also interesting is the history of steel and wrought iron coming from different places in the world when people in some regions had no idea why their steel was no good (i *think* the english had issues with sulfur, and I guess given that the base stock for tamahagane is sometimes referred to as "sand iron", I guess silica for the japanese).

What is the most amazing is that in the pre-chemistry era, people tinkered and came up with processes that did in fact make very good and pure steel when they couldn't have known fully what was going on.

I agree. If you look at the engineering capabilities on a lot of old things. Building, roads, metallurgy, etc. Its quite amazing what good ol' trial and error was able to accomplish.

Now with this thread being lively and all the great input about steels, hardness, and honing coming up I had to go and test out that Iwasaki. Both the Iwasaki and the Blue Steel Kanetaka were honed to HHT and a nicely polished finish and I would have to say that the Iwasaki was the better performer. It just seemed to shave nicer overall. The Kanetaka did a great job too but i much prefer the Iwasaki now.

After I was done, a few runs on the strop and the Iwasaki was passing HHT again (This is very impressive to me as most razors aren't able to handle my hair for more than 1 shave before requiring a touchup... Head shaving for those curious).

So now that i've figured out which one seems to agree with me best, its time to get my post count up so I can put the others on the BST

Yet if you have an option to try a real tamahagane razor do so you will find out it is somehow different than anything else, it is very nice experience.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Yet if you have an option to try a real tamahagane razor do so you will find out it is somehow different than anything else, it is very nice experience.

How do you find them different? Are they a smoother shaver? Hold an edge longer? I have one that should be coming tomorrow so i'm excited to get it honed up and test a shave on it. I've been on a mad hunt to find the "ultimate" razor for myself that can be my go-to razor. So far it seems that the Sheffield wedge razors are easier for me to use but I'm still not over the Japanese steel and blade style yet...

Originally Posted by fchan

How do you find them different? Are they a smoother shaver? Hold an edge longer?

They are different on the stones. I can't say anything about edge holding since I do not use one every day, there are stories that barbers could use those razors for hundreds of shaves with no touch ups but are they true who knows.

Originally Posted by mainaman

there are stories that barbers could use those razors for hundreds of shaves with no touch ups but are they true who knows.

This story comes from Iwasaki honing manual & to put it in context, it was his praising of linen strops. I don't know if he exaggerated the numbers.

"Recently, there are many people who don’t use a linen strop. An improperly maintained linen can damage your edge, but a well-cared-for linen strop can be a fantastic tool. I personally know two barbers who were each able to shave more than 1,000 people without needing to rehone their razors, through skillful use of linen. It really is best to use a properly prepared linen strop. A razor which won’t shave after being stropped on leather can often be restored to shaving form by proper linen use."

I think one of the iwasaki razors even has a story of over 1000 attached to it.

On a woodworking board, someone told me they used their tamahagane kamisori every day for a year without rehoning it.

I have been able to weed out some of the plane and chisel stories, just because I know how they fail and results from competitions bear out that the modern steels with lots of carbides will always beat a plain steel in a durability contest.

But some reputable dealers and iwasaki have made some pretty big claims about their harder razors, and I can't say too much other than the razor may be the perfect instrument for a super plain carbon steel like tamahagane. I think my hope of getting a white #1 razor just aren't reasonable because no maker is going to go to the trouble of using white #1 and running it to 67 hardness unless they're getting the price they'd get for a tamahagane type steel with the mysticism that surrounds it.

Originally Posted by DaveW

The nuisance sharpening is a product of hardness, I am glad you said that. If you had told me that it sharpened easier than white II or swede and lasted 10x as long, I might have felt the need to purchase some.

It is not quite like that , which is why they are so unique IMO, the bevel set is easy all the way to the final stage when it suddenly takes a while to get the edge dialed in. I had the same experience with my Hitachi Tamahagane razors only they also chipped on my Chosera 1K, something no other razor in good shape has accomplished so far, that is how hard the steel was.