This thread, at the request of Moderator Josh Earl has been moved here for any further discussion anyone wishes to make on the issue that was originally brought up here.
Chris L
Printable View
This thread, at the request of Moderator Josh Earl has been moved here for any further discussion anyone wishes to make on the issue that was originally brought up here.
Chris L
Thanks, Chris. :)
Guys, the mods are currently having a discussion about what type of guidelines should be in place for the BST forum. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. We will weigh your comments and balance them with the admins' goals in developing these policies.
I think we can keep the flourishing marketplace that is BST alive while also implimenting some modest boundaries.
Josh
I just want to throw my 2 cents in here.
I do not think the BST should be a “free for all” where anyone can join SRP and sell a bunch of razors without contributing to the community as a whole. From the time I joined SRP, I always viewed and recommended the BST here as something of a “safe haven” where one could pretty much count on a fair deal because the community as a whole would keep members/sellers in line and not let them take advantage of a “buyer beware” free market.
I have noticed a dramatic increase in the price of razors - especially on ebay. Those increases now seem to be reflected, to an extent, here. I don’t know what’s causing this or if there is anything we can do about it.
I don’t think we need a bunch of new rules though. The fact that this thread arose says that the community is doing its job and policing itself. The “system” is working, so lets not futz with it too much.
Jordan
Does anyone think that it would make sense to implement some type of minimum post count and minimum amount of membership time before a "member" is allowed to post something for sale in the B/S/T section of this forum like they do at B&B? I am not sure if I do, but it might be something to think about because it could potentially reduce the problem of people registering just to post items in the B/S/T section instead of eBay.
I can't believe I missed that thread. I think the greatest concern is what Philadelph bought up, the fact that, that particular member came here and started selling straights without so much as a proper introduction and most posts were either FS threads or how much are these worth?
I had noticed this myself and it is rather concerning to think perhaps our new members are just coming here to sell their razors that they know nothing about coz they are almost guaranteed to make a profit from a place that deals specifically to but not limited to straight razors.
I also noticed today, a similar member who has become a know-it-all in a matter of weeks, who openly said he paid $X for a razor and has put it up for sale at 257% profit minus shipping.
IMHO some guidelines might just be a good idea, because as stated, its the genuine newbie who comes here looking for a good quality shave ready straight that may end up getting/feeling ripped off.
Thanks to the mods for putting a plan into action. You have my support.
I agree with Jordan on all counts. I'm afraid on B&B, where they're experiencing the same problem coincidentally (or maybe not coincidentally), that B&B may go extreme on regs, rules, guidelines etc. I hope that doesn't happen. The way some are talking over there, I would think they'd have to have a full time 24/7 mod just to police BST. Hopefully that won't happen there, and I don't think we need that here.
Jordan also touched on something I agree with; razor prices on Ebay IMO have gone up. The few times I've SOLD razors, I've sold them on Ebay because I wanted to get the highest price I could to make a profit. To me, that's why Ebay is there. Aside from the fees that Ebay charges, if someone is out to make a profit (nothing wrong with that) I cant quite figure out why they wouldn't want to list a razor on Ebay rather than BST? :shrug: When I've sold on Ebay, I've benefited from the person that for whatever reason buys my item for honestly way more than I think it's worth; I'd never even think of "shooting the moon" on BST by asking for the absolute max I think some person may pay. I suppose if I had a continuous boatload of razors to sell, Ebay fees of a greater significance at that point would make BST threads at B&B, SRP, Shave my face, etc attractive. It's been said before, but SRP BST is not a fee-free Ebay equivalent and is not meant for that.
I DO plan on selling razors on SRP BST in the future unlike some that have said they never will. The reason I haven't yet is that I intend on selling razors I take great pains and time into restoring and razors that would first either be in my own shaving rotation or would be shave worthy sharp of being in my rotation. I'm not advocating that only such razors be sold in BST (and that razors in need of restoration not be sold in BST), I'm only giving my own personal example of what I intend to use BST for in relation to selling razors occasionally in the future.
Chris L
+1 on this. I am relatively new to SRP, but I owe a great deal of my straight shaving experience to the ideals of this community. I would hate to see people taking advantage of the site in any way thus degrading the name and reputation everyone here has built out of sheer good will and fellowship.
I have always been under the impression that the B/S/T/ was safer place to buy razors especially for new members...
The term "Shave Ready" has been discussed at length, and most realize that the best the can ever happen is that each seller does his absolute best to assure that he sells a razor that a new member can feel comfortable in trying for his first attempt at straight shaving... or a restored razor/semi-custom / custom built to their absolute best of their ability for any member...
That being said, besides prices on e-bay going through the roof even our favorite vendors have raised prices on new razors....
So yes prices are up, period end of story!!!!
My personal opinion is that the "Banter" is caused by non-contributing members whose only posts are in the B/S/T forum this seems to be the under current to the recent flare ups.... Some people sell razors for the love of this hobby, others are trying to make a living selling razors!!!!
Is there a solution that can be implemented by rules.... I think not, the solution is already in place, the Senior members police and protect the newer members quite well....Our Mods are quite efficient at quelling the small flare ups between members already..... Are we as a group the most gentlemanly ??? Really the answer is YES (Try going to any Gun Chat forum YIKES)
In general I feel that this is still by a long shot the best most friendly forum I have ever had the privilege of being a member of... I hope that it does not become a "Police State" full of rules and regulations..... That would truly ruin what we have here.....
Thank you for listening:
That thread is actually a good example of how the BST forum works well. I would have liked to see Philadelph's post sooner but I like the way it does in many ways seem to self-police to keep only the quality sellers doing good business.
I think that the best way to keep up the quality in the BST forum is to, as experienced shavers remember to comment on the positives, if any, of the items for sale. Kind of a recommendation system that way. Yes it could turn into an ol-boys network but thats OK as that will ensure quality as long as we're honest in our evaluations.
I must admit I don't often frequent the BST because I'm not in the market so to speak, but perhaps I should, if only to be a help to our newbies with my comments.
For instance upon seeing the first post of that thread my thought was, not a bad deal if this was a honed razor, but even then not a good deal. I figured the price would be a deal at $35 pre-honed and $20 or so in current condition as long a shipping was included.
P.S. I'd hate to see use go the way of B&B or SMF as they often seem to overreact to little things making them less friendly and less gentlemanly places to hang out.
Hi guys,
I am relatively new here so I may be out of line posting concerning the rules of the forum.The only thing I found ironic in this situation is that not long ago a member of several of the shaving forums listed items on 3 different forums.More than 95% of his posts had been in the B/S/T's on the 3 forums.
I brought this to the attention of the mods on one forum and was chastised because the quality of the member's goods was very high.
I dropped the issue and didn't even mention it on this forum.
There was no complaining here about the fact that almost all of his posts were in the B/S/T.This was due to the fact that everyone was jumping on his high quality items.
I realize that everyone was just trying to protect the uninformed buyers that some newbies can be. But it should be a fair judgment on the member no matter what the quality is.
I think a minimum post count and minimum membership time is a great idea.
I've seen this actually work on the other forums because some of the sellers that were prevented from selling their goods never showed their face again.
That to me was a good indication that they were only there to sell.
Sorry if I've been long winded about this.
Thanks for your time,
Bob
I think that both a time limit ans post count limit should be required.
time limit because some people post 100 posts + a month. but 1 month into this you just aren't knowledgable enough.
post limit because someone can join and never paarticipate then start selling a few months later wiyh that I'd.
I agree that the benefit of our BST forum is that a new person can feel safe buying here and know what they are buying is as described. without the knowledge to state those about your item its just like an buy it now on ebay.
I think a minimum of 2months and 50 posts is not asking a lot.
lastly, I think good bad ugly razors can all be sold here. just take good pictures and state the facts. I've pm'd sellers calling things mint that had obvious rust all over it plus hone marks. shiney does not mean mint!
-J
ps. I don't think I sold a razor on the BST forum till I was a member for over a year
I think a minimum post count would be a waste of effort. If I really wanted to jack my post count, all I would have to do is just briefly reply to every single post. In other words, if I am hell bent on selling my crap here, I will spend a few days piling on inane comments into the threads until I reach the limit, then I will be considered vetted and proceed to BST. I don't think a post count would be of any use but to dilute the forums.
If you review the posts of someone who sells a lot of razors here, you will see that his first post was, "What does it take to qualify to sell here?" There was nothing wrong with the question but a look at all of his posts makes his intentions clear. He never contributes to the content of this forum. He doesn't help anyone.
I think the only solution is to monitor the participation of people who appear to be selling a number of razors in BST. The "fee" for selling should be their participation, or contribution, within the entirety of the forum. If they are participating, then they are in essence paying their dues. If they are only selling razors, they are not contributing and should be asked to either join the club or move on.
The guidance statement about selling on the BST forum has been stated a number of times and was made a sticky not long ago...
The BST forum is not a substitute for ebay... it's a place members can use to buy/sell/trade an occasional razor, etc... i.e., don't plan on running a "razors-for-sale" business on the SRP BST forum.
"Occasional" means just that... once in a while, not one every day or even a week.
"Don't plan on running a business on SRP... " has pretty clear intent.
Honestly, what more needs to be said.
Rules don't make things work... people make them work... you and me managing and conducting ourselves in concert with the SRP community.
We should all cherish members here who are honest and giving of their time and talents to foster the art of str8 shaving. But I don't know that you measure that by post count. Take John West as an example... hardly ever visits SRP but is a true str8 aficionado and a prominent member of the str8 community at large. Anyone would be foolish to discount information in any post he might make... and would you really want to deny him the ability of selling something in the BST (if he ever chose to do so) before he made a dozen posts?
The majority of the members of this community who sell razors do it because they like restoring them as a hobby, they enjoy the challenge of getting a good deal on eBay, etc. They like helping a newbie get started in str8 shaving with a decent sharp razor. They do their best to describe their items completely and honestly because that's the way we do things here... not because there's a rule.
SRP provides the BST forum as a place for a community for buyers and sellers to interact... SRP is not the guarantor, the merchant, or the broker. Things will work best if you police yourselves in the BST... but do it with the utmost respect and civility. Rely on the moderators to take care of those who refuse to act in a civil manner. Rely on yourself to know what you're buying and from whom.
There are 100-200 people joining our community each week... many are just lurkers/newbies, but those that decide to take up str8 shaving all need a razor. So demand is high... that implies to me prices will be also. :shrug:
I'd like to come out against basing the posting rights on post count. Having been a moderator on another board, it leads to lots of pointless posting to jack up post counts.
I've been here for a few months, but don't have a lot of posts. Why? Because I'm still learning. I could start posting all over the place, but most of the threads I read often are ones where I have no useful information to add. Most of my posts are questions or off-topic. That said, I just posted a WTB in BST and maybe I'll get better at restoring and want to put up a razor even if I spend more time here lurking and learning than posting.
I could start posting all over the place. Lots of "lol" and "I agree" posts, but if lots of people are doing that you end up with a discussion board without much discussion.
Lots of other boards call posts made just to increase post-count "spam"... and spammers get banned.:eek:
Maybe a hard limit of items sold per month would quell this issue? I know it would suck to do, but it might make a difference. Another option (that I personally don't like) is to have a mod ok items before they hit BST. Just a couple of thoughts.
maybe have a minimum time on board as a contributing member before you can sell? i don't think anyone cares if newbs and spammers want to buy stuff, but maybe you need to be active for a month or something before you are allowed to sell.
i agree that basing it on post count is counter-productive, it will just lead to spamming in order to boost post counts.
I respectfully, and only slightly, disagree.
I'm not sure exactly where the line should be drawn regarding frequency of sales. Case in point, Gary, aka Traveller, sells amazing razors and certainly has been selling more than one per week lately. I don't think anyone minds that he does so because he is clearly putting a lot of effort into the razors and they are amazing. Many others also consistently sell quality razors and by doing so provide a safe reliable resource for forum members, especially newer people who would likely be screwed over by an ebay purchase. I'm not sure such sellers should be so restricted.
I sell razors locally. I have never sold a razor on ebay nor have I sold any in BST. I usually go through spurts of prepping razors when I have some downtime in my lab. If sometime later I start selling some here, I don't see the harm in selling more than one per week if there is demand for them. The sheer number of new members indicates a continual demand for quality razors. I believe the quality of the seller should determine the acceptable number of razors to be sold. In other words, you should have to earn your right to continue to sell here and a friendly notice from a moderator can be used to ask someone to slow down or stop selling.
I'm not to thrilled with the new "thank you" addition and I have not yet seen any explanation for them (I haven't looked for it), but it smacks a bit of a popularity contest to me. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of seller rating system is to follow. I would prefer for the forum to continue to self-monitor, pro and con, as much as possible. I think it has been working and that is what started this recent round of discussion. Who knew that a Boker King Cutter could stir up so much?
On the other hand, maybe we should just all set up our own selling sites.
:w
The problem with the hard limit, to me, is that we have several respected and well established members who restore, hone and sell a number of razors per month. Now, based on the time they're putting in, they're not "profiteering" or making any money. Its more like a service in my mind. I'd rather have a shot at the items here than have to go for them on ebay or another forum. It gets complicated :shrug: . I'd rather we have some flexibility and trust senior/respected members and mods make the judgment calls. I think we can handle a small flare up - like this one- once in while.
Jordan
This is a tough question for all parties.
There is a broad perspective in the perception of value here.
Some are shavers, some collectors, some are interested in practical art.
* While a $200 wapi might seem obscene to me it does not to others.
* While I think a blade that is past it's ability to be shaved well with is garbage others do not.
* I generally spend 30$ or less on a razor but I have also spent more than ten times that for a razor.
I like to think I'm smarter than everyone else but occasionally I have my doubts.
I like to think the B/S/T serves multiple audiences. Likely the biggest valid area of concern I can see is that Newbies get razors that will not turn them off of straight shaving (either through quality of tool or price). After that I think we generally have a forum of adult members who are unreasonably interested and opinionated about little hunks of really sharp steel.
An FAQ for how Newbies should buy a Razor should likely be the first stopping point and highest area of concern. I regularily see prices that befuddle me when I compare them to shavingshop or classicshavings prices for NOS. I also don't know what to makes of refurbs that cost more than customs. Obviously the buyers disagree.
I think we should likely keep our "That's retarded" or "I could by 6 of x for that" out of the sellers thread. While both statements may be entirely true and I am tempted to post them myself they are also inappropriate.
Clarifying the process for moderating posting in B/S/T would likely help some. In the same way that spam can be noted and pointed out to a moderator by clicking on the report post button on the top right I think that we could communicate an issue with a sale.
The moderator could then make a determination and open a discussion with the seller. Without a 3 page flamefest.
I realize this makes moderating B/S/T more of an annoying job but leaving it to monthly flamefests isn't good for the community.
-Bob
Many good comments in this thread. I think others have said something like this, but as a fairly new person here and to SR shaving, there are lots of razors that are new to me: brands, toe styles, grinds, etc. I think that a well-described, well-photographed razor ad is a contribution in itself--I can learn from a post that is selling a well-described razor, just as I can from that razor in the review section or show-and-tell.
And as I said elsewhere, I'd also hate to think that some long time members who do such a great job restoring razors would have an artificial limit put on their sales. Even if I don't buy a particular razor, I can get a lot of pleasure from seeing it!
This is probably the most polite and calm board I've ever spent time on. I agree that some common self and a desire to keep the board, including B/S/T will keep it that way!
Dan
+1 on this. I just joined a month ago, maybe less. In addition to becoming instantly enchanted with the notion of straight shaving, I was continually--even daily astounded by the goodwill and generosity of members here. I've bought a few things off of BST, and looked at even more. I definitely haven't been around long enough to know if what I got was a good value, shave-ready or not as it may have been, but I paid what I was willing to pay for that razor at the time. There was some issue of conduct in a WTB post I made, but in that case a more senior member (not sure how senior) stepped in and said something. It certainly didn't escalate like the thread that lead here, but some of the same issues were brought up.
I love shaving now, never did before. I also now own a more razors than the number of times I have yet shaved. Mostly due to getting carried away with newbie RAD, but also obtaining some with plans of restoration as I envision this as a much needed hobby. So when I finally find the time to restore a blade I don't intend to keep, I had intended to offer it here, and still do unless things become uncomfortable here. I really don't imagine they will, as I've far too much good here for something like this to darken it.
When the time comes I hope there are no criteria to be met, even if I'm relatively unworried that I'd meet them. From what I've seen, this community DOES do a good job of policing itself. I just hope nothing of what I've discovered SRP to be gets lost in an over-reaction.
Sorry if this got wordy, and I hope it stayed on topic. Hopefully my two cents counts despite having joined only recently...
Evan
Just to be clear, what I meant by that comment simply was that if controlling the difficulties of BST becomes too much, it could be solved by having everyone becoming a vendor. I fully acknowledge, understand, and agree that the BST is not and should not be used as a storefront.
Regarding the post count issue before posting.... I am a member of another forum (A linux OS and related software forum) where there is a "package request" sub forum for members of the community to request something that is not currently available. This particular forum remains invisible to visitors/newly joined members until they have become part of the community, to keep frivolous requests down to a minimum ( and that is based on ones total post count). It is automatic so no Mods are needed to police that part, perhaps a similar technique could be employed on SRP?
Regards
Kaptain "Just thinking out loud...." Zero
OK, so sometimes i go off "half-cocked". however, i think that a post count or a time on the forum limit is silly, again it leads to silly spamming.
but what is the nature of occasional, sure it is great to see some of the handiwork that others produce but it would be nicer to see them in the razor or restoration thread, but constantly seeing the same members post 5 or six razors a week or every couple of weeks makes it seem like the board is dedicated to them. i see know issue with a member wanting to sell 6 razors at a time but they should only do that once every couple of months, IMO.
Those people who have plans to sell more frequently than that should do so in either the classified section or in the vendor area. Many of our more frequent sellers freely list that they consider razor restoration and honing as a business so expecting them to behave like other vendors is reasonable.
for a final note, i thought we had hashed all this out last month. when people started commenting on other folks prices, and the upshot was if you did not have anything good to say about the deal offered or in some way wanted to question it you were to do it with a pm or two not openly so that you embarrass or insult a fellow member... or maybe that is just part of my interpretation of gentlemanly conduct.
not every great shaving razor is a delight to the eye and not every beautiful razor is good to shave with.
Ironic you should say that, as this forum is regarded by more than a few people I've talked to as the least friendly of all the forums. It's probably somewhat due to the nature of this forum itself (dedicated to straight razor shaving exclusively), but I've found all the wetshaving forums to be VERY gentlemenly and respectful, by and large.
It's all about perception.
:OT i have noticed that as this site has grown a lot in the past year, around 1500 new members since i joined, there have been "hiccups" in the gentlemanly conduct from time to time. but there is still a core of old hands around that make every attempt to help people on the path to a great shave. in any group of people there are the inevitable small cliques of people who from time to time believe the group exists for their benefit... sadly around here that usually means they splinter off and form a new shaving website.
this current discussion is really just part of our growing pains.
After taking some time to sleep on it, I now also have come to the conclusion that post count and length of time as a member won't be so helpful.
As said people may post junk or one sentence crap to up their post count. Members who have been here for a year with not a very high post count can still have the exact same effect as a person who just joined up now and starts selling stuff.
I think Azjoe really hit the nail on the head when he said we need to police this site ourselves but...... I have been online a few times where there are a dozen or so members online with one small problem, they're all newbies that joined up that same month. In that case, self policing is a little awkward because how do these newbies know enough to tell another newbie something is over priced or not a good deal? :shrug:
Just my unwanted 0.02 again.
With all the posts on this topic, I figure to give my opinion then read the posts. Not the safe and sound way to do things.
Hello, I'm Tom. I'm a newb at Straight shaving.
When I came here to learn what I can about the art/technique of shaving I also got a passion for the work of the razors. The artistry of them. I've been into knives for many years. I looked at the BST as an ignorant babe. All the different models and shapes. Why was this selling for more than that one..Why so many black handles..that sort of stuff.
I was surprised at the comments I saw in the BST by non-seller. There were comments like...paraphrasing...THIS SUCKS. The handles look like they're falling apart. OR
That's a lot of money for this razor...
This critique of a seller's item was totally new and NOVEL to me. I wasn't comfortable with it because I could see me misidentifying or making some other error that we all make and then I'd feel bad.
Since I have been here My mindset has changed. I APPRECIATE the feedback (MOSTLY) that I see folk have about a seller's item. Good questions and very educational. Most have been respectful.
The post that started this all I was following just for educational purposes and then it came to light the facts.
THANK you to who posted the facts about this BST. I felt a sense of relief that if someone knew that there were concerns OR should be concerns about a BST it was brought to light.
Not just buds or promoters of some BST but a real honest "WHOA guys. Here's what I know"
That was VERY cool.
I don't see new rules doing anything but getting in the way..or more granmdfathering posts..Mods don't need more work or follow up on a post.
Keep BST bunnies out of BST and keep doing what you (hopefully ...we...someday) are doing. Keeping BST above board.
I think anyone should be able to ask any price they wish..I think anyone should be able to say "too much" and a discussion starts.
If someone says"too much" they should be able to back it up and not be doing it out of jealousy or revenge.
Keep open posting like I see and ALL IS GTG. We don't need to change anything today..
Best of intentions tho maybe not expressed well.
I think that often when you start to employ rules to control a small number of users it winds up hurting many more people than first intended like the bad marksman who can't hit his own target buts hits everyone else's. I would think most here know when someone is trying to rip someone else off and know when certain members just post on the BST Forum to sell things and will be wary of those people.
Unfortunately if you are going to have a BST Forum thats just the nature of the beast and you will have to accept the fact there will be abuses. Hopefully the mods will step in before things get out of hand and for small issues I would leave it up to the members.
Just because opinions were solicited, I'll chime in :p
I would be hesitant to place time or post count restrictions on posting in BST just because it would discourage noobies from requesting stuff or asking questions. I know that is a small concern but I'd think it is valid.
You can't have it both ways. Some may have gotten upset about the reactions in the "other" post, but I think the reactions illustrate why the BST works. It is self-policing as long as moderators and other members have the stones to call BS when required.
I am quoting what I said in the "other" thread because I think it bears repeating:
One reason I look at the B/S/T is because the items I expect to find are generally more quality items, posted by individuals that know what they have. More importantly, the sellers are not posting to make a quick buck (that's what eBay is for) but to add value to the community. I will be posting items here that I will sell at a fair price that I have invested more time than money in. Yes, I intend to make back what I have in it financially, but the offerings will be to try to further the community and fund items that will further support razor restoration. My personal goal is to help the new and expand offerings for the not-so-new.
The allure of SRP and in particular the B/S/T section for me personally is that it is thought to be populated by gentlemen that conduct themselves as such. What Tanamack posted for sale, while not illegal or immoral in any way, does not seem to support the spirit of the site as a whole as I see it. It was picked up for a song then flipped with zero investment to better the item, nor did it or provide a really good value (relative to the original cost) to the members here. I am a huge supporter of a free economy- I wear a uniform every day to defend such ideals, but this illustrates a growing concern I have had about the spirit of this section of the forum (B/S/T).
Some may misinterpret the reactions of some of the members as being sort-of snobbish (for some reason), but I see it as keeping things more basic and protecting the integrity of this site. That's not intended to sound like I'm pontificating, just keeping it real.
The BST needs to be a place for enthusiasts not profiteers. IMHO self-policing with clear guidelines are the best answer. As long as folks understand the rules, they have no reason to get a case of the red-ass if/when others call them on something that seems questionable.
I generally sign a post with "v/r". That's for a reason- it represents "Very respectfully" and I put it there because I mean it. If others post with the same spirit (which I think is the core of this discussion- respect and spirit), there should be no issues.
Thanks....
v/r
Allen
It's simpler than this - take a look at the top right corner "Casino" - where do you think all this fake money to spend comes from :p
There's one for $250, right now :) It looks great but there are other razors I need first...
OK, now that I've taken care of the jokes, because of the posts before mine, I don't think I'll say anything new.
Certainly lots of red tape doesn't seem like a good solution. I'm not sure what's exactly the problem that needs to be solved, though. I've seen razor prices go up on ebay esp. over the last 6 months, but I'm not sure that the prices are the problem. When I joined newbie-targeted shave-ready razors used to cost 20 for a wapi and 30-40 for a restored vintage. The price of the new wapis is up by $6 since then. The prices of restoration projects have gone up by no more than $10-$20. Everybody can see the prices on B/S/T and can decide if they are commensurate or not.
The prices on B/S/T are higher than ebay and the reason is that we have more expertise than the sellers on ebay and theoretically pick only the best (quality/value/etc.). Then there may be also a restoration part and perhaps honing involved and most people would like some compensation for their time and effort (although there are many cases esp. of older members trying to help new ones that are a notable exception).
I don't have any problem with people making any profit they want to make. What I have problem with is sellers who are trying to piggyback on the perceived 'experience' of SRP to get as much money as they can. I've seen examples of this starting probably 3 months ago. The people who fall for this are newbies who do not know better. This is annoying to me not because of the profit the seller makes, but because after I've taken the time and effort to help a newbie to a successful start I hate it to be ruined by a seller that is not interested at all in the hobby, only in his checkbook.
We used to recommend to newbies to stay away from ebay and instead pay the higher prices at b/s/t, but I do not feel comfortable doing this anymore. The best I can do is tell a newbie to contact such and such person who may have a razor for them, because I know that person will provide them properly honed razor at a fair price (and often at a steal). I do not take people's dignity lightly and I have avoided posting embarassing comments in the FS threads, on few occassions I've warned a buyer that the razor may not be what they want to start with. When I've posted questions I try to be courteous and neutral.
As one of the members said, when starting, he appreciated things being commented on publicly. Perhaps all we need is to review what a gentlemanly conduct is. I'd like to be able to comment in threads and give my opinion on items being offered, but perhaps if you have serious concerns you should first bring them up with the seller in a PM. A clearer guidelines would be helpful. My understanding is that the current ones are 'If you can't say a positive thing, don't comment'.
As far as what constitutes treating B/S/T as a no-fee ebay, I guess no rule can capture that and if somebody things a seller is abusing the forum, they can contact the mods who can certainly make a decision.
A couple quick points.
1.We are thankful for all your thoughts
2.The BST is NOT a storefront
3.No offense to anyone but just long time membership does not mean you can run a business in the BST
4. We are a forum not a selling site the BST is for members to sell and trade and buy in a Gentleman's fashion. There is no room for comments on price or quality. If the buyer and seller are happy that is all that matters.
5. There will be adjustments maybe minor maybe major and all your feedback will be used.
Thanks guys for taking the time to give feedback to better the site
Don
Reading these posts I figured to keep quiet since I am very new to this site and straights in general. As my wife tells me I very seldom keep quiet and sometimes somebody new can come up with something so these are my thoughts. First to address a couple things Don said above
Soliciting inputs from the members and using those in the decision process are a great thing. It helps keep the board running according to the majority of members wishes.
Saying B/S/T is not a storefront I disagree with. It may be more like your local swap meet than the supermarket, but Buy/Sell/Trade says you are conducting business. The difference to me is that the folks in B/S/T are not doing this as their profession, Razor restoration, custom razor creators do this as a a hobby, as well as the ones that may have too many and just want to get rid of some. If its a persons or businesses lively hood then that should be in the vendor site. I would not expect vintage blades to sell razors in B/S/T.
From a newbie perspective the comments are a help. Just as in the auction area you talk about the sales on ebay, the comments in B/S/T help me make an informed decision. Some razors are better for a newbie than others, and the comments from the "old hands" can help us make an informed decision that will help us stick around straight shaving longer.
A lot of what I see written on this site talks about "Gentlemanly behavior" when a decision on what to do with B/S/T is made hopefully the mods will ask if the proposed rules enhance or detract from Gentlemanly behavior.
To help protect newbies in B/S/T, which I think i read once or twice above, how about putting a description template at the top of each sale thread. Something like
Mfg: George Wostenholm
Model: IXL
Size: 5/8
Defects: pitting on spine, tarnish on blade, scales broke in half
Shave ready: No
I Have shaved with this razor: No
Price:$
After this the seller can put in whatever he wants for a description
ie. this razor was carried by Marshall Tucker when he crossed the RIO Grande ahead of Montezumas troops. The handle broke when it stopped the bullet aimed for the southward facing portion of his northward moving anatomy. This blade has been credited with stopping the unheard of Polish-American war
As a newbie this gives me the most important info right up front instead of rereading the post to make sure if I picked out every thing. If I'm looking for shave ready razor I would move on to the next.
Sometimes with more than one razor I have to go back and forth to make sure I can match the parts of the description to each photo.
Sorry for the long ramble
Bob
I completely agree with the boards mission on keeping things civil and classy. Reputation is important but all the talk about post count and account age misses focusing on the PRODUCT.
Ebay is full of bad pictures and junk being sold by people who know nothing about what they are selling. If the SRP community wants to raise the standard for products sold, to me, the easiest solution would be to set standards on the product/description. The SRP community can easily police itself if there were strict guidelines for posting in the BST section.
I offer this suggestion, listing a razor in the BST should require clear pictures of both sides of the blade. These 2 pictures should be fairly simple for anyone with a digital camera. However the 2 simple pictures tell the buyer just about everything they need to know about the razors condition. Pitting, rust, spine thickness, uneven honing, finish, edge condition are all easy to spot with good pictures.
Let the razor speak for itself. If the seller is making unfair claims, pictures will let everyone see the seller is questionable. At that point the Mods deal with liars and cheats as they see fit..... :wShave his belly with a rusty razor:w
All good points, Time restrictions are probably the best option to prevent someone from joining just to make a buck, but that won't stop the established members from crossing the line either intentionally or accidentally.
selling in the B/S/T is not a right, just as accessing the forums is not a right. It's something that we have policed ourselves in the past, but does have room for improvement.
My suggestion would be a confidential warning or penalty system where moderators can warn and restrict an individuals rights to access B/S/T.
A member would be "warned" by a moderator for violating the spirit of the forum. This Warning would automatically prevent the member from viewing, or listing anything in B/S/T for 24 hours. each additional warning would automatically quadruple the time that B/S/T is unavailable to that member. Simply put if you violate the terms, you lose access to that specific area.
By restricting access to B/S/T they can't buy sell or trade anything here... The threat of this alone would keep most people in line. Those who still don't learn would completely lose access, so would go elsewhere.
This could even be streamlined for the moderators so it's a matter of clicking a Warning :nono: button, and the member would recieve a message thatThe fact that the person was warned may be implied by the lack of their presence in the BST forum, but would not be made public in any other way. By increasing the time they can't access BST, they would quickly learn to behave, or they would end up banning themselves permanently. also if the member is posting in the rest of the forums, and really contributing to the community, maybe there can be a way for moderators to adjust, remove, or reduce the restriction.:shrug:Quote:
"Your post violated the spirit of the B/S/T forum, and you have been warned by __moderator___. you will not be allowed access to BST for __ hours. If you wish to Appeal this you may contact __moderator___ and your case will be reviewed."
first warning 1 day
2nd warning 4 days
3rd warning 16 days
4th warning 2 months
5th warning 8 months
6th warning would be 2.7 years, but if you need 6 warnings, you aren't going to learn.
If they don't learn by the 2nd warning, there's something wrong with them...
Heck you could even use a multiple of ten instead of four...
first warning 1 day
2nd warning 10 days
3rd warning 100 days (3+ months)
4th warning 1,000 days (2.7 years)
5th warning 10,000 days (27.4 years or pretty much forever)
The advantage of restricting just BST instead of the entire forum is peer pressure. Nobody is going to want to have to tell their peers that they can't access BST.
Some of the prices of razors are going crazy.
Don't get me wrong, there are lots of folk selling razors at great prices and if it's kept this way, BST will blossom.
However as said before, if the buyer and seller agree on this high price then so be it. It's their prerogative.