Another honing article: peer review asked

Gentlemen,
I have add an article to the Wiki: Bevel-setting in theory and practice - Straight Razor Place Wiki
I have confidence that the information I have add is reasonably sound, but I'm not that confident that I always managed to express myself in a clear manner. I find this stuff more difficult to explain than to do.:o
Anyway, I hereby start a thread to receive peer review about the article. (I am aware that the Wiki has its own tools for that, but it seems that almost no one uses them:shrug:)

I look forward to all your suggestions,
thanks,
Bart.

Hi Bart,

Very nice!! One recommendation might be to incorporate the 45 degree angle with the X stroke for both Wedges and Smiling blades in addition to the Rolling X. I have found that instead of the normal X stroke done usually at 90 degrees that the 45 degree angle is excellent for making sure the entire edge crosses the stone.

Your diagrams are excellent.

Thanks,

Lynn

Hey Bart great guide! I love the diagrams, especially the top down views.

My only criticism, if that is what it is, is that a reader might get the impression that using one layer of tape is a negative practice. IMO it doesn't add up to enough of a change in geometry to affect the integrity of the blade. Having a heck of a lot of razors and not wanting to go to the trouble of remembering which were honed with tape and which without I use it on all of them.

I know at least one honemiester who hones other peoples razors that always uses one layer of tape. He feels that the customer will be unhappy with any wear on the spine no matter how slight. Anyway, I feel that using tape is a good thing and I know that it is controverisal but that is my story and I am sticking to it.

Great job on the article Bart. :rock:

Bart:
I read it twice and a huge :tu
I could only think of two things, to add/change
1.) Same as Lynn just pointed out the use of a heel forward stoke...
2.) The actual use of the 600 grit to start with, I would have written that as a "lower grit stone / Below 1k" or some sort of wording...

Jimmy hit the other one perfectly, +1 there

Thank you all for the kind words. I believe I received some "high praise":)

I will add your suggestion, Lynn.

About the tape issue: I certainly did not intend to come accross as if I reject the use of tape. I think tape has the advantage of shielding the spine from hone wear. For the functionality of the razor and the final outcome of a honing, I don't think it makes a difference. I will try to pinpoint where I came accross as being biassed against tape, and rephrase it in some way, or add clarification.

Kind regards,

Bart.

Nice work Bart.

Thank You & all the other Wiki contributors. Really is a great resource. :tu

Welll done! I didn't really read it all but focused on the graphics instead. I have a pretty good idea how to hone already! :)

One graphic, the "Checking a dull bevel" is curious. If the cross reference is always a "+" sign I'd argue that the graphic is useless for its intended purpose, and text would do the concept justice. Correct me if I'm wrong, or if you see a point to it.

If you added something, so that atleast one factor would be a "-" then it might make more sense to me.

The rest of it looks really clear and concise though.

It seemed pretty clear to me, awesome article Bart.

Outstanding article. Many thanks, Bart!

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

One graphic, the "Checking a dull bevel" is curious. If the cross reference is always a "+" sign I'd argue that the graphic is useless for its intended purpose, and text would do the concept justice. Correct me if I'm wrong, or if you see a point to it.

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That table indeed is a bit redundant.:) I merely put it there in contrast with the first table, to show that, once a bevel is dulled with the suggested technique, these 3 tests become useful for all instances.

I came up with that idea, because I noticed newbies often go to finishing hones with a less than complete bevel. Many times, they end up fumbling on a pasted strop (usually CrO) and manage to get some keenness by convexing their incomplete bevel. After that they have a hard time to understand that they must complete the bevel first, simply because it passes all the tests. If you were to dull a complete bevel with the suggested technique, it takes only very few laps before it passes those tests again. But if you were to dull a convex bevel, if will take exactly the amount of work needed to achieve a flat and complete bevel, before the razor passes the tests again.
The diagram is there to emphasize the usefulness of an at first sight controversial technique: making the razor duck the tests, so they become reliable for the intended purpose.

Thank you for reviewing my diagrams, Alan.
Bart.

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Outstanding article. Many thanks, Bart!

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Thank YOU, for tidying up my mess with the illustrations, Robin. You just saved me a headache while figuring it out myself.:)

Bart

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My only criticism, if that is what it is, is that a reader might get the impression that using one layer of tape is a negative practice. IMO it doesn't add up to enough of a change in geometry to affect the integrity of the blade. Having a heck of a lot of razors and not wanting to go to the trouble of remembering which were honed with tape and which without I use it on all of them.

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Jimmy, I have rewritten the paragraph about the "Double bevel", which is now called the "The diverging bevel" because that covers the various instances of a bevel with a non-standard angle better.
I have described those instances separated now, which gave me the opportunity to elaborate on taped honing a bit more. Please let me know if this clears the ambiguity.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Hi Bart,

Very nice!! One recommendation might be to incorporate the 45 degree angle with the X stroke for both Wedges and Smiling blades in addition to the Rolling X. I have found that instead of the normal X stroke done usually at 90 degrees that the 45 degree angle is excellent for making sure the entire edge crosses the stone.

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Lynn,

Is this what you are referring to?

Bart.

Bart,

I just finished reading your honing article on the WIKI. Very well done! :nj :rock: When putting pen to paper, or in this cans electrons to screen, it is almost impossible to be perfect to everyone. :( My take on reading your article is that it goes well above average in communicating how to set a bevel and is easy to understand. I would not be able to do as well as you and I'm sure that there are few of us that can and have the time to do so. Thank you for a very well authored article and assisting our friends here on SRP! :tu

Bart:
I won't answer for Lynn but that is not the stroke I was refering to....
That is almost a perfect representation of what I call a swooping stroke, and it is very effective on barbers notched razors... Using a slight swoop at the very end of a rolling X to sharpen the curve on the notch...
What I was refering to is the heel / toe angle staying the same all the way down the hone so that the heel is foreward at the start and is still foreward at the end....

And +1 to Joed it is far easier to nitpick then to do the whole thing like you did....:bow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bart

Jimmy, I have rewritten the paragraph about the "Double bevel", which is now called the "The diverging bevel" because that covers the various instances of a bevel with a non-standard angle better.
I have described those instances separated now, which gave me the opportunity to elaborate on taped honing a bit more. Please let me know if this clears the ambiguity.

Best regards,
Bart.

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Looks good to me Bart. Great resource, thanks again for the hard work !

Thanks, Joed. I have been brooding on this thing for several weeks. It's rewarding that it's so warmly received.

Glenn, the "swooping" stroke, eh? I guess I 'll have to create an animated diagram for all possibilities now, and write "Honing Strokes: Theory and Practice" :)

Bart.

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Originally Posted by Bart

Glenn, the "swooping" stroke, eh? I guess I 'll have to create an animated diagram for all possibilities now, and write "Honing Strokes: Theory and Practice" :)

Bart.

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I think it might be a never ending project my friend :D
You defiantly got a good start going....
BTW "Swooping" is just my own stupid name for it I don't even know if anyone else uses it, but I do know it works for certain razors very well...

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Originally Posted by Bart

Thank YOU, for tidying up my mess with the illustrations, Robin. You just saved me a headache while figuring it out myself.:)

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Well, you'll win all razors in the Wiki competition, I think. ;)

Any road, whenever any of you guys have questions about some technological thingamajick, just come to #srp. There is usually someone around who can help.

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Well, you'll win all razors in the Wiki competition, I think. ;)

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I think you are right. :tu

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Well, you'll win all razors in the Wiki competition, I think. ;)

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That's a nice compliment, but I have not emailed any of my Wiki articles to Dave for entering the contest. If a few guys can find something beneficial for their honing or shaving in my writings, that's rewarding enough for me.

:bow
GREAT work Bart....I'm sure that took a LOT of time to orginaize your thoughts and then verbalize what many of you do automatically.


Thank you :tu

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Originally Posted by Bart

Gentlemen,
I have add an article to the Wiki: Bevel-setting in theory and practice - Straight Razor Place Wiki
I have confidence that the information I have add is reasonably sound, but I'm not that confident that I always managed to express myself in a clear manner. I find this stuff more difficult to explain than to do.:o
Anyway, I hereby start a thread to receive peer review about the article. (I am aware that the Wiki has its own tools for that, but it seems that almost no one uses them:shrug:)

I look forward to all your suggestions,
thanks,
Bart.

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Pffft. You coulda fooled me. Your posts are *always* easily followed and chocked full of great information. Your wiki entries are no different. Just awesome stuff, Bart, and it is *much* appreciated.

Great article. The graphics are a nice touch. Are you asking more about translation/grammar issues, or about the actual information?

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Originally Posted by crazycliff200843

Great article. The graphics are a nice touch. Are you asking more about translation/grammar issues, or about the actual information?

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Anything that can improve the article, Cliff. Obviously, English is not my first language, so I reckon there must be huge margin for improvement in that department. All remarks about the actual information, or the way I presented it, are more than welcome too.
Feel free to make changes directly in the article (wiki articles are apt to be reviewed) or present feedback here, so I can look into it myself.

Thanks,
Bart.

Now I understand why you told me I shouldnt use my CrO strop so much.

I do have one question about downstroking. Is that something like a breadknifing motion on a glas jar? Just checking before I ruine my double bevel.

Maarten

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Originally Posted by mlangstr

Now I understand why you told me I shouldnt use my CrO strop so much.

I do have one question about downstroking. Is that something like a breadknifing motion on a glas jar? Just checking before I ruine my double bevel.

Maarten

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Yes, the idea is to try to "cut" the glass, without significant pressure of course. The idea is to dull the edge just enough to not cut hair anymore. It doesn't take more than one, maximum two strokes. Some members have problems with the term "breadknifing" and because that term is connected to a drastic method for removing far larger portions of the bevel, I decided to introduce another term.

As a new straight razor shaver I found your writing to be very helpful. I thank you very much for taking the time to write this up. The illustrations are very helpful. I have a couple of hones on the way as well as a strop--wish me luck!

I just looked at the beginners Wiki and that is some great information. I really enjoyed the honing section.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

Hi Bart,
I have found that instead of the normal X stroke done usually at 90 degrees that the 45 degree angle is excellent for making sure the entire edge crosses the stone.

Your diagrams are excellent.

Thanks,

Lynn

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I have been using the 45degree angle for several months now and think it is the better way to go.

You have done a great service to the straight razor community in taking the time to produce these works. I have no doubt that anyone can take something valuable from these articles regardless of their current honing skill level and I would like to thank you taking the time to compile your knowledge in a very clear and organized format (I know how long producing something of this quality can take). My only regret regarding these articles is that I wish that I had half the clarity of speech/writing in my one and only language that you have in your second. Keep up the killer work brother!

David

:bow:tu