Combe: We did not change Williams Mug Soap! (Case No. 490334)

Every once in a while I try to make modern Williams work for nostalgic reasons then give up. Last week I grated a puck with a cheese grater and got a tremendous, lasting lather but then it hardened again and I got the same old stuff. I tried keeping it submerged in water but it was too slurpy and did the usual disappearing act on my face, while at the same time dripping all over my t-shirt. (The only caviat is that I am a cold water shaver, so I don't use hot water.) I wrote them suggesting that if it worked like it used to I would become a customer. Despite a different ingredients list on boxes of vintage Williams they still maintain that they haven't altered it:


Dear Mr. Ayers:
Thank you for your email to Combe Incorporated. We sincerely apologize for the delay in responding to your request.

With regards to Mug Soap we have not changed nor altered the formula of this product.
We appreciate your continued interest in Williams Mug Soap®. We hope others will be influenced by your enthusiasm for the product.

Again, we apologize for the delay and want to thank you for taking the time to contact us and appreciate your patience.
Sincerely,
Tamara
Tamara
Consumer Resources Consultant
Case #490334
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to reply, Please Click Here Combe | The most personal personal care products in the world..

Very interesting. I'd send them a pic of two boxes next to each other, one vintage and one new, both showing the ingredients.

I agree, if this soap performed like this back in the day I can't see how it's still around. I only gave or give it a go to try and get it to work. Sometimes it's decent but most it's more work then it's worth.

Combe absolutely changed the Williams Mug Soap! When you compare a vintage Williams puck with a current production one, it is obvious that they are different. I just compared a Beecham version with a Combe version, and the Beecham version is definitely better. I have a few 70's era Williams pucks, and they are superior to the Beecham version. It seems like the older the version, the better.

I have tried my circa 1920-30s Williams shave stick and even after all those years it is still better than the current Williams incarnation by a long shot. I don't think Consumer Resources Consultants know much about their own products but that is not unusual these days I think. Do I think the Williams soap formula has changed over the years, you bet I do.

Bob

This reminds me of the Old Spice debate, where some wholeheartedly believe the official P&G line that they didn't alter the original formula in any way, shape or form. I'm one of those that wholeheartedly believe that they did ;)

IIRC vintage Williams listed tallow/sodium tallowate as the first ingredient; now it's listed as the second. It doesn't seem like much of a coincidence that most find the modern version inferior to the vintage....

There is definitely a difference: http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?p=833244

FWIW, I like the new formula too. I've never had a problem with the lather not lasting long enough or not giving good shaves. There are other soaps I like much better, of course, but I don't classify new production Williams as bad soap.

Yea, well it is just barely here in my book. It is usable but as they say just meets standards.

Bob

Just playin devil's advocate here but you didnt give a time reference in your query.
The person that replied to you may have been there for a very short time and i dont really want to make an age reference here but well, you get my point :)
Mike

edit: without seeing your letter you may have referred to "vintage" etc
and the responder like myself only read part of it :)

Inferior ingredients? I mean the formula could be the same but the quality of the ingredients have changed. I imagine to keep it at around 1.50 you could not use the best stuff out there.

I like the new stuff btw

Yeah, the person who replied could be telling the truth - they didn't change the formula; since yesterday that is :rofl2: "Oh, wait, we didn't change the formula, since I came in this morning."

Of course they changed the formula. And why? Because they could save .5 cents on each puck! It's stupid and sad what happens to fine old products when they are bought out by big companies, just for the purpose of saving a few pennies - out of greed. They completely ruin a product.
Wouldn't it be great if another company could step in and offer the exact same soap, with the exact same formula, of Williams, from about 50 yrs. ago, or whenever they were good? Then sell it as a 'knockoff' under a similar name, like 'Billiams'? Of course the big conglomerate would sue their pants off ;-( I think most people would be just fine with paying a few bucks more for the original, fine product.
Wouldn't it be great to have Old Spice smelling just like it used to? The memories that would bring back. I used to get Old Spice deodorant and after shave from my mom every Christmas. How I looked forward to that. And how I loved the smell of it. Now, it's just junk. How sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mcbladescar

Just playin devil's advocate here but you didnt give a time reference in your query.
The person that replied to you may have been there for a very short time and i dont really want to make an age reference here but well, you get my point :)
Mike

edit: without seeing your letter you may have referred to "vintage" etc
and the responder like myself only read part of it :)

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Actually, I gave the responder a link to the history of ingredients listed on boxes over the years:

Look at the "Ingredients Timeline" http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Williams.
I have tried the pre-Combe Williams Mug Soap and it lathers easily. The current formulation is much harder to lather and does not perform as well. I'd become a permanent Williams customer if you changed back to the earlier formulations.

maybe she's related to my ex !
deny, deny, deny :)
Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mcbladescar

maybe she's related to my ex !
deny, deny, deny :)
Mike

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Received another email this afternoon:


Dear Mr. Ayers:
Thank you for contacting us regarding Williams Mug Soap. We welcome all comments about our products.
I have consulted with my supervisor and you are correct Mr. Ayers. I apologize for the mishap.

We did make a minor change( and I mean a minor change) to the formula about 3 years ago, as one of the ingredients was no longer available to us. As far as re-introducing the classic formula, we cannot do that for the reason listed above.
Thank you for contacting us.
Sincerely,
Tamara
Tamara
Consumer Resources Consultant
Case #490334
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to reply, Combe | The most personal personal care products in the world..

It's too bad, a lot of products seem to change for the worse over time. Williams, Old Spice, and Proraso, just to name a few. Why fix something that isn't broken? Could be that the companies have gotten cheaper with the ingredients.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Firefighter2

Could be that the companies have gotten cheaper with the ingredients.

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I think so. Relatively few people use anything but canned goo so I guess they figure this is a nostalgic product whose presence does something for their company. I'd pay as much as $5 a puck if they would bring back the original formulation because I want to feel some connection with the days of traditional wet shaving.

I am a cold water shaver and perhaps I could do more with it if I used hot water, but there are so many great performers out there that work any which way that it's unnecessary to try to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers.

Attachment 136787
1903 Ad for Williams

I would be happy if they would do a limited edition release of Williams in its vintage formulation. I would happily pay as much as $10 a puck for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beavisd

I would be happy if they would do a limited edition release of Williams in its vintage formulation. I would happily pay as much as $10 a puck for that.

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Of course that's impossible if they won't admit that they changed the recipe. But I would too, and buy 10 pucks.

The irony of this ad is stunning, given the decline of a once great product:
Attachment 136954

I picked up some williams from my local CVS and I had no trouble making a great lather for my nightly shave.

While i was researching for this thread : http://straightrazorpalace.com/soaps...p-history.html i did go to their web page and was thinking of writing them as to why they change the recipe. It does make great lather, i think the main problem is that it doesnt last. make it original and surely lots of us would pay 5 times the current price.


The new Williams uses Sodium Tallowate : is salt that is extracted from animal fat.

The old Williams used Tallow: Hard fat obtained from parts of the bodies of cattle, sheep, or horses, and used in foodstuffs or to make candles, leather dressing, soap, and lubricants.

Soaps like Cella use tallow and does perform really well.

My guess is that retailers won't carry it unless it's dirt cheap. If Williams made it the original way it would probably retail for $5 or $10 a puck, and a lot of long-time Williams customers remember when it was 19 cents a puck.

I'd pay full retail price for the original formulation because I have 4 late-19th Century to early 20th Century ads framed next to my strop and where I shave. I long for the connection to those ads because I'm a straight razor shaver.

I, too, can get modern Williams to work with some effort if I set my mind to it but that's not the point. The point is that this is not the Williams our forefathers used. It's an impostor. I don't know what my grandfathers used, but they passed away in the mid-1970s and if they used Williams, this isn't it.

Attachment 137137
A puck purchased today isn't what this gent used in 1903.

I'm also put off that major American corporations take over traditional products and reduce the quality and variety of them. The best things I use either come from overseas or a small business that wasn't around back in the day. I'm grateful to these people but at the same time disappointed that I can't replicate my ancestors' shaving experiences to the extent I want to.

On a lighter note, you can still buy vintage Williams on Ebay, and the new stuff works great as the main for Uberlather. But you never know, Coke went back to their original recipe after the new Coke went sour........
Also the "Prairie Creation Walters shaving soaps" uses the original Williams ingredients with Tallow, but i never tried it, Anybody?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martin103

Also the "Prairie Creation Walters shaving soaps" uses the original Williams ingredients with Tallow, but i never tried it, Anybody?

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Yes, I'm the guy who gave her the idea on The Shave Nook forum. I tried mixing Arko sticks with Williams and coconut oil to try to recaputre the original. I showed her the ingredients on a vintage puck and with her soapmaking knowhow Krissy came up with a reasonable facsimile that works very well. Works great with hot water. Initially had a problem when I switched to cold water shaving but solved that easily by grating the puck in a cheese grater. She started making lemon and rose because those were the past scents Williams used and now she has branched out in various scents. Of course her soap is more expensive, which is probably why Williams won't admit that they have cheapened the formula.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CaliforniaCajun

My guess is that retailers won't carry it unless it's dirt cheap. If Williams made it the original way it would probably retail for $5 or $10 a puck, and a lot of long-time Williams customers remember when it was 19 cents a puck.

I'd pay full retail price for the original formulation because I have 4 late-19th Century to early 20th Century ads framed next to my strop and where I shave. I long for the connection to those ads because I'm a straight razor shaver.

I, too, can get modern Williams to work with some effort if I set my mind to it but that's not the point. The point is that this is not the Williams our forefathers used. It's an impostor. I don't know what my grandfathers used, but they passed away in the mid-1970s and if they used Williams, this isn't it.

Attachment 137137
A puck purchased today isn't what this gent used in 1903.

I'm also put off that major American corporations take over traditional products and reduce the quality and variety of them. The best things I use either come from overseas or a small business that wasn't around back in the day. I'm grateful to these people but at the same time disappointed that I can't replicate my ancestors' shaving experiences to the extent I want to.

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The biggest reason straight razor shaving appeals to me is the nostalgia of it, the ritual that countless men performed years and years before were ever thought of, and I can sympathize with you in this issue.

This is the third response I have received from Tamara. I only wrote Combe once regarding Williams. Her boss must be pestering her to write and further clarify the company's position on the formula change. I am not trying to give these people a hard time. I am a retro shaving fan that would delight in using a nostalgic product like this in its original form. Fortunately there are lots of great soaps out there that have filled the void.


Dear Mr. Ayers:
Thank you for contacting us regarding Williams Mug Soap. We welcome all comments about our products.
We appreciate your comments and will forward them to marketing. As we previously told you we would not be able to revert in the event that an ingredient is no longer available.
Thank you for contacting us.
Sincerely,
Tamara
Tamara
Consumer Resources Consultant
Case #490334
Do not reply to this email. If you wish to reply, Please Click Here.

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Comment:
Look at the "Ingredients Timeline" http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Williams.
I have tried the pre-Combe Williams Mug Soap and it lathers easily. The current formulation is much harder to lather and does not perform as well. I'd become a permanent Williams customer if you changed back to the earlier formulations.