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I have had some pretty good results with using a toe-leading instead of heel-leading X pattern stropping. Be careful trying this, it feels awkward at first. When I toe-lead, I lay the strop on a table to avoid any curve of the stropping surface. I notice the draw is more if using toe-leading stroppings. I have also done this with honing. Anyone with a microscope may see a cross-hatched pattern on the edge if stropping/honing alternating the attack this way. I dunno. What about it?
I hone that way when it seems like the thing to do, usually it's a case of the bevel made me do it
I like it:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
i notice that if you hone heel leading, and strop toe leading, that the abrasion is kept in the same direction (roughly), for good or bad.
I favour toe leading for stropping on a hanging pasted strop. I could see no benefit from stropping this way on a finish leather strop.
PuFF
P.Z., Those parallel tracks could very well make the best serration pattern for certain bevels and edge smiles. I have a couple of re-works on the way. I shall do one of each honing/stropping combo with care and detail and compare the results. I think you are on to something critical for a smoother shave. Thanks, Robert
I went back in the "Strops" Forums and on page 39 I found what I am seeking. In several posts I learned about having a cross-hatched hone pattern is better for a smooth shave (Gaelicboy&Randydance posts). I shall change to heel-lead AND toe-lead when honing and do the same when leather stropping. When I felt that extra draw when toe-leading stropping after heel-leading only honing, it was the relative parallel pattern of etched honing lines "plowing" the surface of the strop. Although microscopic, it makes sense. That "plowing" could possibly alter the surface of the strop over time. I have been honing and stropping nearly every kind of way depending on how the edges progressed and the frame of mind I was in. It is good to read all the posts concerning toe/heel leading techniques. I am to soon work up some cheap razors and will carefully experiment with the various techniques. It probably will not prove much to me unless I use the same brand and model razors. Such fun this is. Thanks for this wonderful Internet Site, Robert
I can not see any advantage in changing the methodologies that have been developed and used over centuries.
Nobody I know shaves with the toe leading. You shave with the heel leading and with a downward (or upward or sideways) sawing stroke. Well actually you can shave however you like, I'm just talking about the "normal/natural" way folks shave.
Have you ever tried to saw a piece of wood with the toe leading. (Western type saws).
The X pattern with the heel leading puts a scratch pattern that allows a sawing type action as you draw the blade down the face. Toe leading doesn't do this. It does the reverse and that will give a less comfortable shave.
The stropping process (cleaning with leather) should also be with the heel leading. This allows the fine nap on the leather to open the teeth on the blades edge and remove any oxidation by brushing it off the edge and helping the edge to be smoother thereby and realigned. Heel leading forces the nap through the teeth giving a better scrubbing/cleaning action than say toe leading that just goes with the flow and doesn't release the rust so effectively.
The process of honing and stropping is designed to put a serrated cutting edge at a 45 degree angle to the cutting surface and present the face with a smooth edge that glides effortlessly over the skin which has been made tender by the exfoliating action of the cutting edge cutting away the stubble and any loose dead skin.
This is not my perceived wisdom, but just a summary of the many descriptions I have read in barbers manuals, that all explain the process in a similar manner.
It makes total sense to me at least.:jedi:
Therefore: If a razor is HONED with both heel-leading AND toe-leading (both sides of the blade), the scratch pattern will be cross-hatched. Now if the razor is STROPPED with ONLY heel-leading OR toe-leading, then only one set of the scratch patterns will be in alignment with the stropping result. The other set of scratch patterns will rubbed across the pattern. Is this a bad thing? Will nap of the strop collect there and not clean and smooth the troughs of the scratches effectively?
How does one quote a previous post from another thread from another time?...
I am trying to get the various opinions on one page for study.
Quote:
Originally Posted by English
I'm an idiot, but not about sharpening. I lead with the toe on my hone to accomplish a specific action. As to the specific orientation of micro serations I don't think it matters a great deal. And i think it certainly does not matter , with control, which leads on the strop.
English, I am not trying to waste time nor confuse anyone. I am confused somewhat with the way my razors have reacted to different, possibly idiotic honing/stropping. What you might consider idiotic makes one of them a perfect shaver. I wish to focus on the best way to hone and strop. There are many ways to do this. There are several mindsets. Not everyone shaves the same. I am not new to the sharpening of metal. I also sharpen handsaws and use them well. There are many ways to do that also. Maybe the techniques are overlapping with me at this point. Again, My Point is to perfect skills WITHOUT WASTING TIME. The inputs and opinions of others mean a great deal to me. Next time you belittle another Member of this quality site, please use a Private Message. OK? Meanwhile go to past pages' #39 of Strops Forum (leading end on a pasted strop thread) and read some. Take them to task. You are done with me and I am done with you.
Kevint,,
I take back my "Idiot" comment . I wrote the reply quickly. Sorry for any offense caused. What I meant to say is that I find the concepts of honing with the toe leading to be idiotic.
I am talking about normal honing.
The orientation of the striations does matter a great deal both in the honing stage and the stropping stage. A razor edge cuts using a sawing action. That is why the orientation of the striations matter.
It is the fundamental principal upon which the sharpening of a straight razor is based.
Suggesting otherwise annoys me because it is just argumentative and not based on any logic. You can fly in the face of generations of barbers if you want but I think that is naive and unhelpful.
Sure to hone out a problem using a toe leading stroke can help on occasion as can a circular stroke as can a back stroke. But this is not the normal way of honing. Normal honing is in the way I described and I explained the reasons why it is the normal way to hone.
I guess we could talk about sawing then:HJ
I will stick with the idea that plain strops are essentially non abrasive. And our standard barber's approach is more based on body mechanics than orienting scratches.
The strop is resetting the saw teeth that have deformed out of line. bent you could say.
I picture the teefs to be similar to double edge daggers rather than single edged. So they are not oriented toward a push or pull stroke. As well, like the Old Verhoven says: there is always a bur.
Coticules on dry beards at dawn:medvl: Heels vs. Toes
I speak saw lingo. With saws "set" is the amount of spread of teeth to each side of the cutting edge of the blade. It makes the kerf (width of cut) wider so that the rest of the saw blade will not pinch during sawing. A razor edge, on the other hand, needs to be most narrow to slice whiskers. My point is to understand the best way to make sure those serrations (teeth) narrow up. Does the strop work better rubbing at a tangent across the teeth, or does it work better more in line with the teeth? To me there is an element of leverage at play here. At least less friction running with the serrations. An earlier thought of mine was that the teeth were plowing into the nap if stropped with the serration, thus causing more draw. Maybe I am feeling the across- the- striation friction. My barber told me that he was told in barber school that some of the strop leather clogs between the teeth to buffer the cutting of the edge against the skin. He wasn't sure of how it worked. I am not exactly sure of how stropping works. I hate being called a time waster and confuser of mankind over seemingly hair-splitting arguments, and I am not in disregard of centuries of technique. I just do not fully understand the best way to get all my razors to shave great every time. Comparison of results can't be that bad to tolerate. Saw talk seems to be less stressful. Maybe a thread in THE FINER THINGS IN LIFE forum, perhaps?...
If we recall the old Modern Mechanix article on safety razor blades with its 2000 diameter photos we will remember there are no teeth at that level of magnification. That was 1931. The saw blade analogy was called a myth.
Sorry I led you on. the point though, whatever form is there at the very edge; it is sharp enough to cut without directional bias. I think so.
Kevin, I saw that copy of the 1931 story. It could be that we have been "mythguided"... I have been through all of our past threads about Stropping and have seen many things and have given Thanks for several. I started at the last page and worked back through 49 pages! I am doing the same with all 115 pages of Basic Honing and 13 pages of Advanced Honing Techniques. This is a wonderful learning site. We seem to enjoy each other's company and inputs. A new strop is on the way for me. Two nice workable razors arrived yesterday amid the fuss about optimum honin/stropping. The point is: I am anxious to begin experimentation with what I have learned from various members. A third razor should be here in the next few days to complete the tests. This is fun and no harm is done. Thanks, Robert
well I'll throw in my 2cents. I learned to sharpen/shave with a straight in the late 70"s. My grandfather, a barber on and off for decades, taught me to ALWAYS use a circular pattern to sharpen and an alternating heel to toe/ toe to heel to strop. I've since found that on some blades it works better/ easier to use the same alternating pattern when honing. I know that alot of people here will disagree,but this is what has always worked for me, and my family (we all use straights,including most of the women). If circles cut too much metal,your grits too course.I use a norton 4k/8k then to a pasted crox strop then finish with a smooth strop, sometimes I'll give it a few laps on newspaper or fine cardboard, and thats it. I never have a problem passing a hht or cutting the arm hair in the middle of the shaft like a mini lawnmower. I have never used a microscope or anything else to check my edge,and frankly don't understand the obsessive nature of some of the people on here,but I do agree with furthering the "hobby", and any accurate info is good info. If your razor pulls at all,its not sharp enough! 2 passes (1 wtg-1 atg) should get 95+% of the growth, then touch up the tuff spots we all have and its done.
stropping/honing toe to heel does not go against what all barbers have always done,and if you were concerned with that we should all be doing circles anyway as thats how most real barbers honed.
just my expirience/opinion....jon
I like experimentation like everyone and I am also happy to challenge the status quo and take on change.
I've tried many ways of honing and stropping. I've even tried circles. Cardboard I have to admit is a new one for me but I can see that cardboard has a nap that should work as a strop.
I have tried many hones, strops pastes and razors and I have read many books and articles and training manuels on how to sharpen a razor. I have participated in many razor forums over the years. I enjoy my hobby.
But please tell me what is a "Real Barber" ?
I bought my first straight razor (brand-new Dovo $90) in 1998. My (Real)* barber who opened his shop in 1946 and is still in business honed my Dovo. He used a grayish hone about the size of a playing card deck. He first lathered it and then almost recklessly honed in quick tight circles! He then stropped it so fast that I could not see heel nor toe leading. It was fast and furious. I shaved with it once and sold it. No straight razors until 2005 for me when I joined straightrazorplace. I stayed for about 6 months with a W&B 6/8 India Steel quarter hollow. It was worn out. I got careless and took a good cut on the jawline. I quit again and started back this year. All my acquired razors give good shaves; only one gives a great shave. I am reverse engineering to get the best bang for the buck out of honing and stropping in order to have all 9 razors be great shavers. I realize that my weakest skill is in stropping. Many reliable posts attest this common weakness. Here we are. I can hardly wait for that new strop and some time with my recent razors. Thank you for your input to this thread. It is becoming evident that this hobby or passion is not a total in-the-box thinking and application. This is indeed fun. Robert
*Made a good living at his skill and art and did not think inside a small box bound by centuries of tradition, dogma, and blind obedience to protocol...cheers.
Robert,
Your barber clearly has some great skills.
I watched a knife sharpener on U Tube the other day and was impressed with his level of skill.
On the subject of stropping, I have tried the various ways you have spoken about and I could honestly detect no difference.
There are three things with stropping that I think matter and have helped me improve my stropping technique.
Firstly, the number of strokes needs to be more rather than less. I think that after honing at least 50 return strokes are required and 100 will do no damage. But you can hear when the razor is stropped.
Secondly, it helps if the strokes are reasonably fast and continuous rather than slow and ponderous. When you are learning, it is best to take it slowly so as not to cut the strop, but to get a really good edge, a reasonable speed and action are important. Incidentally, the barbers I would watch as a child all stropped
quickly and frequently.
Thirdly, the strop should be held taught and the blade run lightly over the leather. Yes you need to exert a bit of pressure to ensure the blade is flat on the strop and that it takes up the slack in the hanging strop, but you shouldn't press the blade into the strop. You can see the nap shadow change as the razor passes back and forth and you will notice a ditinctive smooth sound as the edge reaches its clean and straight state. The tone is different on different blades but is always smooth and sweet, a mellow ringing sound.
When I have honed the striations straight on a wide 3" hone and then stropped effectively with the grain, I can not say I have noticed any change to the edge.
I hope this is a more positive contribution to your quest.
English, That is great advice. I never stropped enough at a time. I sometimes felt a change in the draw of different razors, but it was never routine. To keep from allowing the slightest dip in the strop, I started stropping with the strop atop a smooth table in my shop. It helped. I even developed a physical stance to keep even strokes. A nice aerobic workout for us all! Alas, my Grandfather's pre-1904 Shumate has seen its days as a working strop. My wife has claimed it for her 19th Century collection of knick-knacks on shelves and in shadow boxes. If I pumiced and sanded the surface of that old leather, it would ruin the antique look and the lumps, cracks, and nicks would still be there enough for a less than proper stropping. I also use a piece of line shaft belting from an old Johns-Manville factory built in 1911. It is a fairly good leather item to use and has brought my best blade to greatness. You know, I might just have only ONE great razor among the nine I own. It is worth a try to get them all to greatness. Thanks for some kind input. I needed that. Robert
thanx english that is truly good info in that last post.
I thought we were all in a kind of mutual agreement that the barbers of the late 1800's/early 1900's were about the peak of the straight shaving art,more of a skilled craftsman and thus my "real" referance.
I can remember many little old barbers shaking from age so bad it was scarry, but they'd give you the best shave you could hope for,fast,accurate,smoooth. they all seemed to hone with fast and furrious tight circles, on a really fine grey/brown hone.
as for cardboard, the right stuff works incredible, I find phonebook covers work ok(the inside). it doesn't seem to work as well on my gottlieb hammesfahr (HARD steel), but seems to work great on most softer sheffield razors (w&b).
for what its worth all my strops are paddle strops, I find them far more predictable and thus cuts down on the variables. really just my lack of taking the time to learn to use a hanging strop properly,or maybe I'm just not good at it.
I'm no expert here,just someone who has a little expirience with edged things.
...jon
I am about finished with a restoration using toe-leading AND heel-leading honing, with the same technique for stropping. One thing I noticed is that the edge came quicker to keen that way. I had a good shave with it, but I am to make it better. Upon looking with a magnifying glass, I see a cross-hatch pattern of striations among the smooth-from-stropping areas. I shall use my balsa .5 diamond paste coated strop without leading a a blade end. The strop is wide enough for straight strokes. After that, much more leather stropping alternating the leadings until the edge has lost most of the striations. So far, I am very pleased with this method of equal leadings that some of the Members use. It really makes the difference in shave quality when using a good strop after that.
Hi,
Informative 55 pages article on sharpening: "Experiments on Knife Sharpening. John D. Verhoeven. Emeritus Professor. Department of Materials Science and Engineering. Iowa State University"
Here
Good day,
McKie
I have good results using total and complete toe/heel leading stropping and honing. One thing greatly improved-left hand shaving of left side of face. My razors were not getting good equal sharpening previously.
Check this out: J.R. Torrey Shaving Instructions recomments SHAVING Diagonally POINT TO HEEL! I was believing that NO ONE did this!...I have sinned doing just that sometimes. No Problem! Read it in the "RAZORS" FORUM a few threads past. Thanks.
This I have learned: Many folks, many strokes! If it gets the job done, just DO IT and tell about it. No intent to confuse. Robert
Good thread. I have a question as to some older barber manuals on honing (one is available on line for download, two others checked out of my library). All three said that a slight smiling blade is best (my words their words are not as kurt). They all say the once a new student is proficient with keeping a straight blade sharp then they should change to a slight smiling blade.
It is interesting to note that the books said that to get the toe to the proper configuration you mya have to lead with the toe or spend a bit more time and some pressure on the toe and heal to get the best shape.
I am a noob at best so I cannto comment as I am still shaving with a duller than it should be two razor rotation. But man am I trying to learn to get those two sharp. I can do an acceptable shave with them (as good or better than a single blade safety) and it has improved the odds on getting in grown and razor bump conditions.
So with all of my nonsense above how does one hone a razor that has to be sharpened according to the old manuals using toe leading, heel leading, and maybe even direct prependicular honing strokes?
Gentlemen,
Let's all go back to Verhoeven's fine article for a while. At page7 (figure9) let's look at the SEM pictures of a typical shaveready straight razor.
These picture are made with a scanning electron microscope. A technology that has vastly more resolution that any optical microscope. These pictures are beyond any suspicion.Quote:
Originally Posted by McKie
Now... where are the striations, or serrations, or theeth, whatever we wish to call them?
Remember that that a human hair has (on avarage) a diameter of about 70 micron. It would fill more than half the surface of one of the two most right pictures.
There's no such thing as teeth on a razor. They might be present at an early honing stage while working on a coarse hone. And that might explain why the hanging hair test performs so well at 1K honing level, but we don't shave with such a toothy edge, cause we don't want to saw the upper layer of our skin away.
By the time the razor is honed fine enough to strop, it is not about creating teeth. It's about aligning the microscopically very thin part of the bevel tip that's still erratic. I'm talking about an area along the edge with a width of .5 micron. You can see it on the left picture. There's an extremely small bur there, it shows up as silver lining. Stropping helps the formation of that micro-bur and realigns it before the shave. I believe the realigning goes quick, but the drawing out of the bur a bit further, takes more laps.
I also think that the original poster experienced an improvement, because with toe-leading strokes, one has to push the razor more than to pull it. Which leads to a bit more pressure. I believe that's why he also reported "more drag". And drag, is what we need to develop the micro-bur. Not too much, but enough.
The X-stroke is not about serrations. It's about continuously shifting the points of contact that the blade makes with the hones surface. This evens out all small inconsistencies between the blade's geometry and the hone's surface, and prevents uneven results. With a perfect straight and unwarped blade on a perfectly flat hone, there's no need to do X-strokes. But most blades aren't perfect, and the more we hone them, the less perfect they become.
Best regards,
Bart.
+1 on Bart's post.
Btw, I hone with the heel leading a bit, simply because it is much easier to keep the razor stable on the hone. That is just my preference.
And I shave with the toe leading (as shown in the old barber manuals), sometimes making scything motions as well.
I have tried different things, but to me it didn't really make any difference, so I just do what is most comfortable to me.
And let's refrain from calling each other idiots. Just because something works for you does not mean you can speak with absolute authority. Different strokes for different people, and to each his (her) own.
Even if you disagree, don't go about insulting other people.
Calling people an idiot on SRP is not exactly smart either. Time to calm down.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
I mentioned teeth earlier, but I know there are no teeth.
Bart, in your drawings on the effects of the bbw garnets it looks like you have drawn teeth- but you know there are no teeth!
Why do we keep thinking there are teeth? Is it because it feels like teeth grabbing the hair
You seem to have your facts a bit mixed up there imo. All you recommend goes against all that I have read and learnt over these many yrs, as others here have pointed out. That aside, if you achieve a good shaving edge with the methods you use then this reflects the general theme that there are no rules, only guides.Quote:
Originally Posted by English
PuFF
Yes, I realize that. In that tread I was trying to understand how different honing particles might affect the shape of the bevel apex differently. I only considered the abrasive component of honing. As Verhoeven pointed out in his great paper, there's also another principle at work during honing. I believe he calls it "plastic deformation" or someting like that (I don't have acces to the paper right now). My drawings only dealt with abrasive action, in a very crude way, I might add. I confess that they are of not much practical use. Maybe, just maybe, they show why a hones with round particles (garnets) don't create wire edges. What else is a wire edge, than an edge with teeth?Quote:
Originally Posted by kevint
Bart.
Let's commission that microscope again then to show us what a wire edge looks like!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart
Several months ago when I first began honing (trying to hone), I read a short instruction sheet (maybe that one?) which described both honing with leading toe, stropping with leading toe, and shaving with leading heelQuote:
Originally Posted by timberrr59