Does anyone know where to find Chromium Oxide 1.0? I just ordered some .5 from SRP but would also like 3.0 and 1.0. Does that micron level exist with Chromium Oxide or am I getting confused with diamond spray's?
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Does anyone know where to find Chromium Oxide 1.0? I just ordered some .5 from SRP but would also like 3.0 and 1.0. Does that micron level exist with Chromium Oxide or am I getting confused with diamond spray's?
I've only ever heard of 0.5 micron Chromium Oxide. The only pastes I've seen in other grits such as 3.0 and 1.0 micron are the diamond pastes/sprays. So perhaps you are confusing it with the diamond sprays. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by jrlosh
chro2 will be only 1 size.
maybe it's all the searching I've been doing today but I cant seem to find any info about where to get diamond sprays from.
The bottles of spray last a long time. I can send ya some, if you can get a cheap spray bottle...pm me if your interested. Ive got the SRD 1.0 micron spray.
Mac
I've done a fair amount of research on chromium oxide. The kind we use is Chromium (III) Oxide CR2O3. It's a non-toxic version of chromium oxide.Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
I recall receiving a spec sheet after much back and forth from a Chromium Oxide manufacturing rep which listed an average particle range of different grades of chromium oxide. The largest average particle range in one of the available grades in descending order was 1.7 micron, .8 micron, .7 micron and .6 micron with different purity levels even within those four categories.
I guess that means that chrome ox is available in different particle ranges other than ".5 micron". I put the quotes around the .5 micron for a reason since it would be inaccurate for any supplier or manufacturer of any abrasive to state that ALL particles in an abrasive media would be guaranteed to be the exact same particle size. In our beloved ".5 micron" chrome ox, we've come to believe, we'd like to believe or we think we're certain that we're using a powder that contains only .5 micron particle chrome ox. That's only an average no matter where it comes from.
Chris L
I will try to make this simple.
Water is H20
doesn't matter where or how you get water -it will be H20.
Now you could join salt etc and by doing so you can change weight, consistency etc but water will be same H20 .Will never ever change.
hope this helps.
CR2O3 doesn't matter where or how and when you get CR2O3 you should end up CR203. You can add different ingredients and change weight etc.
I'm confused, Sham. The manufacturer I received information from back then made reference in their materials to milling, separating and sifting CR203 to different particle sizes. My point was that it's apparently possible to purchase chromium oxide in different average particle size other than .5 micron.
Chris L:thinking:
ChrisL of course you can buy in different sizes but that differences made not by chro2. it has been made what other ingredient has been added to it.
Lets say chr02 is 0.5 size you can add a larger ingredient and make size 1.0 etc.etc.
Actual chro2 will never change.
hope this is clear.
I'm embarrassingly ignorant in this area, Sham. I'm afraid I still don't understand. A CR203 molecule would be smaller than .5 micron, wouldn't it?
This is where my ignorance is limiting: I think of chromium oxide as a substance. I think of "diamond" as a substance. Diamond particles can be different sizes and it doesn't take other ingredients added to the "diamond" to change the particle size.
Any additional help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Chris L
ok lets try a little different way.
example .
CO2. HAS weight 1 kg.
now we can get CO2 IN many different ways right? burning,chemical reactions etc etc.
and we get get in in different countries example
usa gets it by chemical way
Russia by burning woods etc etc.
end result is CO2
right. CO2 never changes still same CO2.
Now you can mix is with different helium etc gases and get a little lighter or heavier gas but clean CO2 WILL be always CO2.
Hmm, Oxygen is O2 but there's O3 and O5 too. And what about heavy water?Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
The ore for chrome is Chromite which is Cr2O4 with added iron and magnesium depending on purity.
Most chrome oxide is made for lapidary work so it can be ground to different grits according to need no different than alumina is.
I don't see any reason why the formula can't be artificially adjusted no different than iron oxide has several variants as long as the compound is stable and will bond together.
I would assume that .5 microns refers to the size of a single molecule of CR2O3 (two chromium atoms and three oxygen atoms).. which I intuitively agree with hi_bud_gl that it would always remain constant.
I guess this would leave the rest up to level of purity?
I've come across some chromium oxide on the internet, being sold for cosmetic value - as a green pigment. Though I have already arranged with Chris for him to send me some of his, I'm curious how pure this cosmetic chromium oxide would be, just as a general rule. I mean, it does say "chromium oxide"... I wonder if it would be 0.5 microns as well.
lets try this
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I will jump in here, being a chemist I am sorry I have to disagree with you Hi-bud-gl,
I hope yo donīt take offense.
Chromium Oxide (ie Cr2O3) is the name of a pigment that is green in color.
Like ANY other pigment or cristalline structure there are many, literally infinately many variations
depending on how much time the crystalls had to bind each other
and some other variables like temperature and pressure I guess.
Thatīs why one could think of a single chromium oxide piece as big as the hope diamond.
Cr2O3 is a bad example for this, but how about Alumoxyde.
Al2O3 is available in any grit size, even as big as a palm
in the form of jade!
Believe me the molecular size of Cr2O3 is WAAAAAAAAAY smaller than 0.5 micron.
Cr2O3 has been commonly used as polishing compounds before,
thatīs why 0.3 to 0.5 micron particles were mainly produced.
But if you buy some chromium oxide you donīt have a clue what grain size it actually has!
Thatīs why we in germany use Lukas Acrylic Color with the Pigment PG17 (wich is Cr2o3),
it definitly has a grain size of 0.3 to 0.5 micron.
There are however many other grain sizes like 12 micron.
btw: this can not be solved by adding or taking some elements out of the compund.
Cr2O3 is Cr2O3 or its not our chromium oxide.
Being crystalline however we "could" say (Cr2O3)n
n being the number of molecules in one cluster.
But still this would not lead anywhere.
but to answer the original question: I donīt know of any source for chromium oxide
in 1 micron.
You should go for Al2O3 or Diamond
You can get 1.0 micron Chrome Ox from here Polishing Suspensions - ExtecŪ
Kindest regards,
Alex
Ok that's interesting... so for chromium oxide used for pigmenting in paints or for cosmetics, we really have no idea what size those "clusters" are?
They may very well be not 0.5 microns?
Thanks for the info. I've located a supplier of PG17 and have ordered a small sample size for testing as a chrome ox razor paste. I have also requested an MSDS sheet from them and the average particle size of the substance.
Chris L
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
Interesting i think i am shocked or there is some misunderstanding.
I will type this again. As you are chemist Please let me know you understand what i am saying. I told early
Cr2O3 doesn't matter you make from it pigment ,stone ,water or glue or get it from mountain or dirty water in usa or in Germany is = Cr2O3 will not change it is size ,weight etc etc. it is permanent.
if you are against this Then explain to me what is a differences between GErman and Usa made Sugar. in chemical forms.
i would appreciate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
It's also used as a pigment in ceramic glazes. I can't remember what color it turns after firing off the come of my head. I want to say it turns pink in a reduction kiln and yellow in an oxidizing kiln, but it's bee so long since I did any pottery that I'm probably completely wrong..Quote:
Originally Posted by ddumitrus
I'll the him answer on his own, but my $0.02 in case he doesn't come back around for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
You're looking at this the wrong way..
You are correct that a single molecule of Cr2O3 will not change it's size, weight, etc, etc.
However, a single molecule of CrO2 is not 0.5 microns. A 0.5 micron grain of Cr2O3 contains a HUGE number of molecules. What we see as powder, is in fact a pile of Cr2O3 crystals. Those crystals could have been milled down to any size.
about it is structure weight etc check this link right side tableQuote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
Chromium(III) oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
That's base spec for the chemical compound Cr2O3.... but that single molecule is tiny, way, way smaller than you could ever measure. When millions of this molecule align themselves in a repeating pattern you get a .5 micron crystal. When billions of them align you get a brick. The individual molecule does not change, but the crystals of Cr2O3 can be milled to any grit size.
Try this: Chemically, it is always the same. Physically it can be manipulated.
I'm really sorry Hi_bud_Gl, but you're not right in this.
Do You know what diamond is from?
Coal. Have You see a diamond in a ring?
And in a diamond paste?
It' the same molecule structure, but very different in size.
Or let's see another example:
Do You know how computer chips were made?
You take a piece of SiO2, put in a "jar" of liquid Si, and grow a SiO2 crystal.
ONE crystal!!! And it can be a size of a dime!
And it's SiO2 NOT one molecule, one CRYSTAL!
They call it Si ONECRYSTAL!
I hope this help.
This is different. Now you are talking about configuration(how and in which type joining they have) of the molecules. the best example i remember isQuote:
Originally Posted by mry314
diamond and grafit (Pencil) is exactly same but molecular configuration is different that is why they are totally different one from another.
pencils price a lot cheaper the diamonds .
if you want to go a little deeper it will confuse more people . There is Different covelent etc junction and position of the molecules will affect of the characteristics of the material. in that case name is changes to something else.
Doesn't stay same.
You don't have to be sorry while saying your opinion. thank you for that.
You're right with Diamond& graphite.
They are different molecule structures. And this is the key!
A crystal is a bunch of molecules! This is why they can be different in size.
I said (or at least i wanted to say) in the nature You can find diamond in a size of let's say a bean, and You can find the same molecule structure (diamond) in a size of an ant. They are differnt sizes with the same molecule structure, and the same "ingredient" (coal atoms).
hi_bud_gl-
Think of these compounds...
Salt. Salt is always always NaCl, whether you burn Na in the presence of Cl2 or dry salt water or anything. But, you can take the salt crystals from your salt shaker and crush them smaller.
Sandpaper. Sandpaper is either SiO2 or Al2O3. But you get different grits depending on crystal size.
Arkansas stone. Also all the same type of rock, different grits.
Cr2O3 has molar mass of 152 g/mol. This means one mole is 152 g. So 152g of Cr2O3 contains 6.0221415x10^23, or written out 602,214,150,000,000,000,000,000, molecules of Cr2O3.
It's density is 5.22 g/cm^3, thus 5.22g/ml. One teaspoon is 5 ml. So in one teaspoon you have 26.1g of Cr2O3. This is equal to (from above number of molecules per 152 g) roughly 1.6 x10^23 molecules in one teaspoon. Thats roughly 3 x10^22 molecules per cm^3. One cm^3 is 1,000,000,000 micron^3. If every Cr2O3 particle was 1 micron wide/long/tall, in one cm^3 you could only fit 1 x 10^9. If they were .5 micron, this number would be 8 x 10^9. 8 x 10^9 is a lot less than 3 x 10^22, so I'm gonna go ahead and say that actual Cr2O3 molecules are around 10,000,000,000,000 (10^13) times smaller than 1 micron. Therefore, our pastes use Cr2O3 CRYSTALS.
(Your Co2 example works, except it is a gas. Gases are individual molecules, solids are clumps of molecules bonded together)
Think of it this way guys. If you take as (an example) a xtl of quartz SiO2 6 inches long and you have enough magnification the single molecule of that xtl (the smallest amount you can have) will look exactly like that xtl. The xtl is made up of a gadzillion tiny molecules. The mineral substance always wants to look like its basic component however most of the time there was insufficient time, temperature or space for the xtl to grow. So when you go out to your back yard and pick up a piece of milky quartz it has the same exact chemical composition as the pretty xtl but the molecules are haphazzardly arranged because one or more of those factors wasn't ideal. The molecules which look like a tiny xtl will look like a basic 6 sided polygon to match the xtl system its in just that the habit of the xtls will change depending on the physical factors present when the stuff formed.
The fact you can grind up either the rock from your yard or the pretty xtl no matter how fine you make it you will never (practically speaking) get to a fineness of one molecule whether the grit size it .5 or .00000005. because once you get down to the size of one single molecule the next step down is to be looking at the individual atoms making up the anion and cation making up the quartz.
Even if the material like the CrO is not naturally forming it still obeys the same laws. You can make some very pretty artificial xtls.
clear as mud?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl
I actually already looked all that information up in my CRC handbook.
The point, is that it's irrelevant to the discussion. The molecular weight and basic crystalline structure of a compound, be it CrO, Cr2O3, NaCl or whatever you want, has NOTHING to do with the sized the crystals can be milled to for practical application.
The basic unit of two Chromium atoms and 2 Oxygen atoms is infinitely smaller than 0.5 microns, and the only limit to the maximum size of a Cr2O3 crystal is the total volume of chromium and oxygen in the planet, and our ability to creat the right conditions for them to bond and crystalize.
If it was useful to mill and sell Cr2O3 crystals the size of golf balls, then people would do it.
"Most" of it is sold milled to 0.5 micron because that's the size that people buy. There is absolutely no reason why it "can't" be produced at a 1.0 micron size, except that practicality dictates you probably want something harder when using abrassives that hard, making diamond more popular.
The crystal explanation makes sense to me. Here's a place that sells CR203 in average grit size of 50 MICRONS. I ordered a small packet just to see how different that would be from the reported .5 micron we all know and love.
50 micron Chrome Ox
Under "About our Pigments" area it states: "All of our pigments are ground to 50 microns for ease of mixing." I confirmed this in a prompt email reply from the company when I asked for the MSDS sheet since it was not one of the ones listed on the site. They also reiterated that the Viridian (Chromium Oxide CR203) averages 50 microns in particle size.
Chris L
Just for the record, 50 microns is HUGE compared to anything we would ever use for honing.
I belive that would be roughly the equivalant of a 300 grit hone. Not sure you'll be able to accomplish anything useful with it on a razor.
On the other hand, if you've got some trash blade lying around, give it a go and see what happens. Worst case scenario, they're still trash blades when you're done.
Oh, no doubt 50 microns is "coarse". Knowing full well what grit equivalent that would roughly translate to I ordered a packet out of curiosity and to have on hand in case I feel like dreaming up some sort of experiment. Setting a bevel with chrome ox. At the level we use it at, it does seem like an oxymoron. I don't know that 50 microns would stay 50 microns in actual use or if it would reduce rapidly in crystal size to something somewhat smaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubb65
Chris L
I don't know either, but I'll be curious to see what sort of results you get.
:HJ
This has me pondering a different question.
Given that Chris' source can offer 50 micron grit sizes that are ground to that specific size, can I grind down some .5 micron to a smaller size? I have a mortar and pestle and an extra flat bed strop on the way.
Would this be worth the time and effort? Would a mortar and pestle be sufficient for the task?
Sorry to derail.
BTW, thanks ya'll for the discussion. It's got quite a few of us thinking (which is always good).
Yes you could, but it's probably not worth the effort because a mortar and pestle wouldn't allow you to controll the size of the end result. Some would still be .05, some would be smaller, and they'd all be very inconsistant.
Well, as i know, the reason is, that CrO was used for polishing metal, is that it's much harder, than the steel. So, porbably You can break the crystals, but i don't kniw how. If You can find out the hardness of it, You can probably figure something out. But i'm pretty sure if You want to use it for metal polishing, or as an abrasive, You will have to work hard&long with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisL
And that's where things get really complicated. Hardness and durability are not always the same thing. I'll be very interested to see what comes from it.
hello hi_bud, I hope your question has been answered.
I can very well understand you and hope so do you (because my english is pretty bad)
"Cr2O3" is the smallest compund that repeats itself in a material.
That does not mean anything made of Cr2O3 will consist of only one Cr2O3 molecule.
Cr2O3 comes in a configuration as well.
You can see that in the second picture here Chromium(III) oxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or here File:Eskolaite structure.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you see the moleculs consisting of Cr2O3 actually bind together.
(red is Oxygen white is Chromium I think)
So in one single piece of Cr2O3 you actually have a lot of accumulated Cr2O3 molecules.
Cr2O3 is a substance that will form crystalls.
And Crystalls are nothing more than accumulated molecules.
I donīt know if there is a difference in US and Eu Sugar,
but I know that there are way different sizes in Salt.
That would be exactly the same phenomena.
If the sizes of Chromium oxide particles can be taken from its atomic specifications,
why are there varyances in the size of grain at all?
0.5 micron Cr2O3 does have particles below 0.5 and above.
This would not be possible if a Cr2O3 particle would consist of one Cr2O3 molecul only.
Btw. one chromium atom is 128 pm of size
and letīs say Oxygen has 152 pm
together Cr2O3 would theoretically have 560 pm
that would be 560 / 10.000.000.000.000 m
Itīs just an example and not actually the size of a Cr2O3 molecule.
0.5 Cr2O3 has an average particle size of 0.5 / 1.000.000 m
And Yes you could break down the particles even more,
but not by using a mortar. They are just too small and hard already.
You could only filter out the smaller particles sedimentary
I did response early and i hope was clear. i never mention chr2o3 has particular size example 0.5 or 1.0 micron. i didn't know what size it has now i know after checking it).I mean to chr203 size weight etc will not change.
This is simple as it can get.
if you want to melt,froze anything else and change configuration of the molecules or joining among them that is different story.
But simple chr2o3 is same and will stay same doesn't matter where or how you get it.
chr2o3 has 2 chro and3oxgen right?
now if you add million more 2chr+3ogxygen you will get 1 kg right
next lets add 5 million more 2chr+3oxyge now you will get 5 kg of it.(those are just examples)
size is bigger and weight is different.
I understand this but i hope you will try understand below.
Lets say
chr2o3 has 100 molecules together and right weight is 100gr
next we do heat it up particular temperature and instead of
2chr +3oxygen we have added 100 extra only oxygen
NOW LETS SAY OXYGEN JOIN THEM AND MAKE INSTEAD OF CHR2O3 YOU WILL HAVE CHR205.NOW THIS MATERIALS WEIGHT AND CHARACTERISTICS WILL BE DIFFERENT.IT WILL ACT TOTALLY DIFFERENTLY ETC.IT WONT BE chr2o3 any more
I hope this helps and clears what i was trying to say.
Iīm sorry but this doesnīt make sense.
The chemical formular Cr2O3 has clearified as true for the smallest
compund repeating itself.
You will never get one single Cr2O3
The word "Cr2O3" is an idialisation for chemical reaction only.
There is no way of changing Cr2O3 to Cr2O5
It simply does not exist.
Chromium has exactly 3 arms. He can grab 3 things.
Oxygen has 2 arms.
So if two chromium will grab five oxygen there will be some arms left
to grab something. This is not possible.
There are exceptions of course but for explaination purposes it will do.
Chromium oxide molecules will stick together to a certain extend.
Two Cr2O3 meet and will actually COMBINE.
Maybe even 100 do so. This way a crystall is being formed.
This crystall can be seen like a single peace of material
consisting of 100 Cr2O3.
This crystall will be ONE chromium oxide particle
of any given size depending on the amount of Cr2O3 accumulated.
It will have the size and the weight of 100 Cr2O3
If there has been growing a crystall at one point
there will be formed another somewhere else.
This crystall will consist of 100.000 Cr2O3.
It will have a considerably larger size but still will be one piece of (many) Cr2O3
there can be formed another crystall at another