My stropping technique.

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08-16-2009, 03:34 AM
natepaint

My stropping technique.

I've been stropping for almost a week now and this is what I do.
1. I place the blade gently on the strop do a very fast stroke, stop, just shy of the flip, gently flip the razor on it's spine, do a fast stroke back, stop just shy of the flip, slowly flip, and repeat another 60 times or so. I know going fast during stropping is important, but I figuere the fast part matters most during the stroke.
2. With my razor in my right hand and my arm fixed to my side, I move my entire body with the blade along the strop by shifting my body weight from my left foot to my right foot. I ensure the left hand holding the strop dosn't let the strop slack.
I have a Filly for practice, but I am so confident using these technigues I occasionaly do 30 laps on my 3" Black Latigo. I didn't even think I would see the Latigo for another month or so let alone touch it with my Dovo.
Am I forming bad habits? Should I stick with this or change, to a style I see on the Wikki page? Does or did anyone else strop like this?
08-16-2009, 03:42 AM
VeeDubb65

Rule #1 - Do what works for you.

That being said, I can't imagine this working well. You should really watch the stropping videos in the wiki.

Perhaps I'm getting the wrong impression from you, but it sounds like you're pretty much throwing your whole body forward and back; razor first. That's a recipe for disaster.

It also sounds like you're coming to a complete stop with the razor still on the strop. That is also a recipe for disaster. The slightest move in the wrong direction and you'll wreck the strop and your edge.

Stropping should be fluid and steady, not leaping forward and back with a razor.
08-17-2009, 02:13 PM
natepaint

Since you were the only one to respond to my question, you single handedly convinced me to conform.
You are right on both of accounts. I do throw my body weight into my stropping but I had taken Ki Aikido classes for a few years, that experience helps me control the motion. I also stop the blade while it still on the strop.
I am attempting to make it a more fluid motion, but I will not lie, I do feel like the way I used to strop, probably, shaved a month or two off my learning curve.
08-17-2009, 03:19 PM
JimmyHAD

Take a look at the 1961 barber manual excerpt from the SRP Wiki here. The last couple of pages are concerned with stropping. Personally I prefer my strop waist high. This is equivalent to where the hook is on a Koken barber chair and what most pro barbers used as far as setting it up. I use a zip tie on a door knob.

The tang should be held between thumb and forefinger to allow the tactile feel to put light pressure on the edge and the wrist shoudn't turn. This is out of the manual.

Practicing flipping the razor on the strop until it becomes automatic without moving the arm is also recommended. I wish I had read all of this before I "learned" to strop.

I had a lot of bad habits to break but I succeeded in learning the correct technique. This assumes that the manual is correct and I think it is. IMO I would lose the body english. :)
08-18-2009, 04:41 AM
Kelby

Why do you believe it is important to strop fast during the stroke?

IMHO, going fast is a sure-fire way to get sloppy and ruin your edge. And I'm not aware that speed helps in any way.
08-18-2009, 05:29 AM
BKratchmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelby

Why do you believe it is important to strop fast during the stroke?

IMHO, going fast is a sure-fire way to get sloppy and ruin your edge. And I'm not aware that speed helps in any way.

There needs to be a certain amount of force to bend the steel. Since this cannot come from downward friction, a critical momentum needs to be met to really effectively strop. It's why you buff with rouge on a large, fast wheel- it will cut so slowly otherwise that it would take exponentially longer to get the same effect. No more pressure, just more speed.
08-18-2009, 01:51 PM
TexasBob

Believe it or not, I used to play the accordion. And believe it or not, that is relevant to this thread!

One of the tricky things to learn about playing the accordion is finger placement of the right hand (on the black and white piano-style keys). To a beginner (well to me at least when I was a beginner) it feels (felt) more natural to place the thumb behind the keyboard to give the right hand more positive control. And it is true that it helps. BUT, you can never learn to play the accordion well that way. You need to bite the bullet and use all five fingers on top of the keyboard.

The relevant point is: What is best is not always the easiest for a beginner to master. In the *long run*, after some training, what the experts tell you is best will be best.
08-19-2009, 01:06 AM
natepaint

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Practicing flipping the razor on the strop until it becomes automatic

So, I wasn't completely wrong then.
Thank you for the link.
@ TexasBob. I am slowly trying, so I will do the best.
08-19-2009, 01:56 AM
rayman

Quote:

Originally Posted by natepaint

So, I wasn't completely wrong then.
Thank you for the link.
@ TexasBob. I am slowly trying, so I will do the best.

The link that Jimmy gave you is one of the best descriptions of how the strop stroke should be done. I think I am a fast reader, but a slow understander. I red this link a while back, and just didn't get it. In a recent conversation with Jimmy, he pointed out the part that went over my head. Make sure you understand the easyest part of this, and that is the part about the holding and placing of the razor.

The natural tendency is to place the bottom tang on the thumb pad and the top tang in the first joint of the index finger. Yep, that's how I was doing it. Holding the blade this way, and watching it as you stroke slowly, you will see that the blade can move toe up, heel up, left or right. If you do as the article suggests and hold the blade with the thumb pad on the top tang, and the index finger pad on the lower tang. Place the blade on the strop and make sure the spine is always flat, and move it along the strop slowly. You will feel the stability of the blade, and with a taunt strop, you won't roll the edge.

Start out slowly like this and make sure you start to feel the drag on the razor. It is that drag you are looking for. As you get better with it you can increase your speed. This isn't a race, and no one really cares how fast you do this. Find the most comfortable speed for you that works.

Keep at it, you will get it.

Ray
08-19-2009, 06:04 AM
Kelby

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

There needs to be a certain amount of force to bend the steel. Since this cannot come from downward friction, a critical momentum needs to be met to really effectively strop. It's why you buff with rouge on a large, fast wheel- it will cut so slowly otherwise that it would take exponentially longer to get the same effect. No more pressure, just more speed.

Wow, I couldn't disagree with this more.

No offense.

Stropping slowly works just fine. Assuming the downward pressure on the blade is equal, one slow stroke puts the same amount of force on the blade as a fast stroke. (As for buffing with rouge, it does not take exponentially longer with a slower wheel to get the same effect. A wheel that goes twice as fast takes about half the time to buff an object. Yes, I do a lot of buffing, and I have tried it.)

Not to say that stropping fast won't work if you do it accurately, but going slow also works just fine. I stropped slow for the first 8-10 years of straight razor shaving, and had no problems. I've sped up a bit over the past 5 or 6 years due to impatience, but don't get any better results. I still need the same number of strokes to get the blade the way I like it.
08-19-2009, 12:37 PM
natepaint

I see what you are saying. For me, I do not know how much downward pressure to speed Ratio I would need to ensure that I do no create a burr (that I read so much about) in my blade. I do know that speed and a feather light touch will not ruin my blade ( I haven't perfected stropping so I'm probably ruining my blade anyway:)).
08-20-2009, 12:58 AM
Scipio

Speed achieves nothing, especially if youre new to stropping. It may look cool in videos, but stropping can either make or break an edge. I strop slowly and get great results.

A certain amount of pressure yes, but no more force than the weight of the blade is required. too much force and the edge will become dull.

have you tried a paddle strop?
08-20-2009, 01:33 AM
BKratchmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scipio

Speed achieves nothing, especially if youre new to stropping. It may look cool in videos, but stropping can either make or break an edge. I strop slowly and get great results.

A certain amount of pressure yes, but no more force than the weight of the blade is required. too much force and the edge will become dull.

have you tried a paddle strop?

This is true, to a point. The ridiculous speed some barbers/videos show is ridiculous, and you are better off starting VERY slow until you get the hang of it... but shooting for an ultimate speed of about 1lap/sec will get you superior results.
08-20-2009, 01:45 AM
Scipio

exactly why does speed give [I]superior[I] results?
08-20-2009, 02:27 AM
BKratchmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scipio

exactly why does speed give [I]superior[I] results?

See my post earlier in this thread...it's all about achieving a critical amount of force to bend the steel, and you need the force in a lateral plane. The slower you go, the more of the force has to come from a vertical plane.
08-20-2009, 03:11 AM
natepaint

I'm currently around 45-50 laps per minute. I'm not to far off of a lap per sec. I thought based on the videos I was seening, I needed to be around 90 laps a minute, thank you for clarifying that to me. I think I will pay a little more attention to ensuring my blade is properly meeting the strop and gradualy build up to a 1:1 ratio.
@ scipio I don't have wooden strop I didn't like what I saw of people using them on vids, although I wouldn't say I would never give them a try.
08-20-2009, 03:16 AM
BKratchmer

60 isn't necessarily a hard, scientific number.... just a ballpark. YMMV, find what works for you. I definitely still strop more in the 40-50 range....tops....
08-20-2009, 12:16 PM
Scipio

Id recommend a paddle strop, theyre much easier to learn on as tension is not required. i have both types and use the paddle as my main strop, the hanging type is only for pastes. Each to their own, but i personally prefer the paddle
08-20-2009, 01:06 PM
TexasBob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scipio

Id recommend a paddle strop, theyre much easier to learn on as tension is not required. i have both types and use the paddle as my main strop, the hanging type is only for pastes. Each to their own, but i personally prefer the paddle

I refer you to my earlier post: http://straightrazorpalace.com/strop...tml#post438227

what is easiest to learn is not always what's best to learn.
09-09-2009, 08:17 PM
gingahippy

I have just about stopped shaving with a straight because I can't get it quite sharp enough any more, for a while I could but now, it just pulls a little too much and I am sure it is my stropping.

I have been holding the razor with my thumb pad on teh bottom of the tang and index finger on the spine/back of the razor, so that appears to be my problem.

But if I try with my thumb on the spine of the tang then when i begin to strop away from me the razor is facing the wrong way and the only way I can see to flip it is the wrong way, ie it wants to flip underneath, against the strop. It doesn't seem possible to flip the other way. i can't watch any of the videos either since my connection is to slow and they all jump.

I can't beleive I have come this far to find I have been getting it so wrong.

What a suitable new smiley they have added to teh collection.:banghead:

But now I have hope of getting over this hurdle, so close but sooooo far from actually being able to shave painlessly and quickly.
09-09-2009, 08:35 PM
gssixgun

The Glen hint to stropping:
Pay attention to the spine, really just make sure the spine is nice, flat, smooth, and even as it goes up and down the strop, everything else will do what it is supposed to.... that means use enough pressure to accomplish this too...

As to speed, at one time there was a test done about it, those guys found that extremely slow stropping did not do very well... That does not mean you should be speed timing yourself either 60-90 laps per minute hehehe
A nice comfortable "CONTROLLABLE" speed is more important..
And practice the flip, a butter-knife or very dull razor is good here, really I am not joking...
09-09-2009, 08:41 PM
keenedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by gingahippy

I have just about stopped shaving with a straight because I can't get it quite sharp enough any more, for a while I could but now, it just pulls a little too much and I am sure it is my stropping.

I have been holding the razor with my thumb pad on teh bottom of the tang and index finger on the spine/back of the razor, so that appears to be my problem.

But if I try with my thumb on the spine of the tang then when i begin to strop away from me the razor is facing the wrong way and the only way I can see to flip it is the wrong way, ie it wants to flip underneath, against the strop. It doesn't seem possible to flip the other way. i can't watch any of the videos either since my connection is to slow and they all jump.

With the spine pointing away from you, the thumb should be on top of the tang, or the top corner closest to your body. The index finger underneath. Then push away, spine leading. Then on the trip back you rotate your thumb down and back, and your index finger rotates in the same direction, again spine leading.

I don't know if that description helps or hinders. I hope the former.

Quote:

I can't beleive I have come this far to find I have been getting it so wrong.

What a suitable new smiley they have added to teh collection.:banghead:

But now I have hope of getting over this hurdle, so close but sooooo far from actually being able to shave painlessly and quickly.

Hang in there. :) You'll get it, just be patient. If you can't strop you're way to a sharp edge, you may need to refresh it with some paste, finishing hone, or send it out.
09-11-2009, 12:32 PM
keenedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by keenedge

With the spine pointing away from you, the thumb should be on top of the tang, or the top corner closest to your body. The index finger underneath. Then push away, spine leading. Then on the trip back you rotate your thumb down and back, and your index finger rotates in the same direction, again spine leading.

OK, I misspoke yesterday. "Then on the trip back you rotate your thumb down and back, " it should read, Then on the trip back you rotate your thumb *forward.* The index finger rotates in the same direction as the thumb is rotating, but it's heading back toward you.
09-11-2009, 03:46 PM
khaos

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

There needs to be a certain amount of force to bend the steel. Since this cannot come from downward friction, a critical momentum needs to be met to really effectively strop. It's why you buff with rouge on a large, fast wheel- it will cut so slowly otherwise that it would take exponentially longer to get the same effect. No more pressure, just more speed.

There is NO physical support for this. Momentum=mass dot velocity (M=mdotV), or simplified, mass times speed (M=ms). Friction=normal times coefficient of friction (Fr=N(mu)). There is no reason to assume friction depends on speed. The friction on the blade edge is constant (assuming your downward (normal) force is constant)

If you were to supply an initial impulse there might be a critical momentum one would need to complete a stropping stroke, but since we are providing a constant force input, there is no "critical" momentum we need to achieve. This would be the same as accelerating a car to say 30 mph then letting it coast to a stop. In order to say, have that car travel 200m, one would need to have a critical momentum at the end of the acceleration. However, if you are going to supply a constant force (ie not coast) it would be a simple matter to travel 200m, you could have a momentum of 20kgm/s or 50 kgm/s it doesn't matter.

The reason you cut on a large, fast wheel is this. Distance = (pi)*d*w*t, or pi times diameter of the wheel times angular velocity times time. As such:
A 2" wheel, 2000rpm, 1 min= pi*d*w*t= 3*2*2000 = about 12000" a min.
A 4" wheel, 2000rpm, 1 min= pi*d*w*t= 3*4*2000 = about 24000" a min.
A 2" wheel, 4000rpm, 1 min= pi*d*w*t= 3*2*4000 = about 24000" a min.
Thus one can see, the bigger and faster a wheel, the more tangential distance is covered. The frictional force depends only on the normal force and coeffecient of friction, and the distance covered. Stropping faster allows you to cover more distance in a minute, but 60 laps in a minute or 60 laps in 5 mins should have the same effect.
09-11-2009, 03:51 PM
khaos

Quote:

Originally Posted by BKratchmer

See my post earlier in this thread...it's all about achieving a critical amount of force to bend the steel, and you need the force in a lateral plane. The slower you go, the more of the force has to come from a vertical plane.

This is complete BS I'm sorry. Take Physics 101 then come back and talk about it. Friction between solids depends ONLY on Normal (ie. vertical) force. Lateral force has nothing to do with it. Also, force is the derivative of momentum (ie. rate of change) so "establishing" a critical momentum doesn't even make sense. Momentum doesn't generate force. In fact, Newton's first law is "an object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion (has momentum) stays in motion, until acted upon by a force".
09-11-2009, 03:59 PM
khaos

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssixgun

The Glen hint to stropping:
Pay attention to the spine, really just make sure the spine is nice, flat, smooth, and even as it goes up and down the strop, everything else will do what it is supposed to.... that means use enough pressure to accomplish this too...

As to speed, at one time there was a test done about it, those guys found that extremely slow stropping did not do very well... That does not mean you should be speed timing yourself either 60-90 laps per minute hehehe
A nice comfortable "CONTROLLABLE" speed is more important..
And practice the flip, a butter-knife or very dull razor is good here, really I am not joking...

Last post I'm sorry. Glen is right, one does need SOME speed, but I'm pretty sure one could strop at 30 laps per min or 90 laps per min and you'd get pretty much the same result. As to technique, whatever works works, but I was taught to put the strop at a comfortable height so you can hold the handle around your midsection. Stand sort of sideways to it, and strop out and to the right. It's more ergonomic on your arm and shoulder to strop in a plane parallel*ish* with your shoulders, than out in front of you.
09-11-2009, 04:19 PM
ChrisL

After reading the OP first post, my biggest concern, like VeeDub's would be stopping to razor at each pass, or at any pass for that matter. If it hasn't happened yet, rest assured you'll have an uncontrolled jerk of the hand in the wrong direction at some point instantly nicking your strop. Never let your razor come to a complete stop on your strop. I'm not a golfer, but I know they talk about the dreaded "yip" on the putting green where the golfer can have an involuntary tic or jerk. Stop the razor on the strop, have a yip and you've got a nick.

Chris L