Understropped and Overstropped

I am coming to a conclusion related to stropping, particularly pressure that I would like to share. These are all just my opinions. I believe that pressure, or rather, the amount of pressure you use when stropping is relatively important. I believe that there is the potential for understropping and overstropping. The difference between a perfect edge and the other two extremes is very close to each other on the pressure scale.

I think this is a very important consideration for beginners primarily, the rest of us may just be rolling with the variances.

First, the Understropped edge: This is accomplished with a taut strop and no pressure. It is possible to get this edge using a little touch of pressure also. The understropped razor is actually a very good edge. It is very sharp. It shaves very well. It requires a light touch to shave with. The best part of an unstropped edge is that it corrects itself either by being stropped over several shaves, or even by shaving itself. The razor smooths out a bit just being pushed along the skin. Beginners should consider understropping their razors and let the first week of shaves just sort of settle in. Give the razor some time to get smooth. This is particularly important if you have purchased professional honing, as those edges are often very sharp.

Second, the Overstropped Edge: The overstropped edge may not really be "rolled" persay, but the first sign is a dulled edge. Luckily this takes some pressure to achieve, but probably not as much as you might think. Overstropped edges have a tendency to be dull, cause irritation, and require more blade buffing to achieve a good shave. You can usually feel an edge that has been overstropped; it will feel like the edge is dull. It is easier to overstrop a freshly honed edge than it is to overstrop one that has settled in a bit with shaving.

Third, the Correctly Stropped Edge: The correctly stropped edge maintains it's sharpness but adds a small amount of smoothness to the shave. It's important that I emphasize two points. The improvement is small, difficult to perceive, and the pressure point for a correctly stropped edge is very close to the understropped edge. The correctly stropped edge is best discovered with an against the grain stroke, which was previously difficult, and is now smooth and relatively easy.

Further, I believe that the amount of pressure I am discussing has no rightful place with measurements in pounds, but rather perhaps in grams. Instead of grams though I would instead prefer to describe a continuum of pressure, say 1-10. I would suggest that the understropped edge is completed with NO pressure, the razor just glides along the edge, perhaps with it's own weight. If we add just a touch of pressure, we may still leave an understropped edge, which, as a reminder is a pretty good position to be in, since it is almost self correcting over time.

Categorizing the stropping levels, I would put them like this:


On a scale of 1-10

No weight on the blade - 0 Level
Understropped - 0 Level to a 2 Level
Correctly Stropped - 2 to 7
Overstropped - 7-10


Using this information I am trying to make two points: One, that correct stropping is very low in pressure, practically overlapping the understropped edge and two, that before overstropping there is a wide margin, the correct stropping pressure. You overstrop by producing quite a bit of pressure. Then, with too much pressure stropping catastrophie occurs, particularly if you don't know how to hone and make the required corrections.


In pratical terms, since I don't know if grams is really right or not, I will suggest that using only the weight of the blade is going to understrop a little, and again, that might be your best bet. I would suggest at this point that using the weight of your hand alone, and perhaps some of the weight from your arm (perhaps not), should give you good correct weight application. Applying pressure downward will likely create too much pressure. I might suggest, since I don't know how cleanly you might be stropping, that applying any downward weight might be counter-productive. Luckily, and most likely why so few people find this subject of interest, it appears to me that stropping rather naturally, with the weight of the hand applied to the strop may be the best option. So, in other words, it's rather simple to get the pressure right, assuming you understand the basic principles.

I think this also gives some interesting points that advanced users could ponder about the importance of a strops mounting angle and it's emphasis in barbering texts. I think that using any angle could lessen the pressure and be helpful, and that a level strop could also be a good guide to pressure as well.

So, finally, an apology on a strangely long post on a rather mundane subject, but I thought I would share my most current observations. Keep in mind also, that my advice is based on the use of my equipment and may not translate directly to what you are using.

I for one really enjoyed your observations - thank you!

Your thoughts on stropping pressure makes sense, somewhat analogous to the effect pressure can have when sharpening & honing.

Yes, very likely. I often find myself adding a little pressure and then using the same pressure reduction strategy I use when honing.

I keep enough pressure to keep the blade flat on the strop, not really weight just pressure. The weight is in keeping the strop tight.... I hope this is right, so far no issues on comfort.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think that using any angle could lessen the pressure and be helpful, and that a level strop could also be a good guide to pressure as well.

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Very true, because the amount of downward force is decreased in this case, that allows for more leeway in pressure.
When the strop is horizontal then all the force applied is downward force in which case there is less room for mistakes in pressure.

I started off trying to use zero pressure, much like I did with honing, but over time and with a little more confidence in my stroke a little well placed pressure goes a long way.

Deliberately increasing the pressure to the point where it starts to wreck the edge is a useful exercise when one has a selection of shave ready blades or is able to rescue the damage on a hone. As a beginner I found under stropping came far more naturally as I knew if I ruined the edge I wouldn't be shaving with my only straight for some time. My stropping improved dramatically when I could freely play around with blades knowing I had a pile of other blades good to go and could reset the edge in a few minutes without any further expense.

The strop also makes a difference. Of my hanging strops the latigo performs better with comparatively low pressure and my ebano pretty much demands pressure.

Thanks for your observations they are interesting.

It brings to mind many years ago when I was in Chemistry class and someone was trying to show all the chemical processes involved in bread baking especially the role yeast plays. I think he filled up a couple of blackboards with chemical equations.

I think sometimes we can make things appear way too complicated. For most of us who have been stropping for a while it becomes an intuitive process and rather than worry about how much pressure is being applied just develop a feel for it and it will come. Kind of like using a checklist every time you do something and then one day you lose the list and your lost when you should have just memorized it to begin with.

For an academic exercise it's great. As a practical matter it's one of those just do it things.

Just my opinion here.

Good info!


I must say that I have had noticible difference since adding a little (and I do mean little) pressure to my stropping. Since I started last year I had made ever effort to strop with no pressure what so ever. I noticed that freshley honed blades took a few shaves to settle down. Since reading about stropping pressure as of late I have made a concentrated effort to add just a touch of pressure. I find my shaves are improving on freshley honed blades and it is definately keeping my other blades in good working order.

According to your observations, I understrop in a big way. I'm getting good shaves presently. However, if it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
I strop with a hanging SRD latigo, close to vertical, using only the pressure of the blade weight. If I continue to use the same technique and do more laps, will I have the same result as correctly stropping?

Probably not, but if your razor is shaving well, over a lengthy period of time, you're probably stropping well. If you aren't stropping effectively it should become evident after a few shaves, say 5-6.

Yea, you got it.

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Originally Posted by alb1981

Good info!


I must say that I have had noticible difference since adding a little (and I do mean little) pressure to my stropping. Since I started last year I had made ever effort to strop with no pressure what so ever. I noticed that freshley honed blades took a few shaves to settle down. Since reading about stropping pressure as of late I have made a concentrated effort to add just a touch of pressure. I find my shaves are improving on freshley honed blades and it is definately keeping my other blades in good working order.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Probably not, but if your razor is shaving well, over a lengthy period of time, you're probably stropping well. If you aren't stropping effectively it should become evident after a few shaves, say 5-6.

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I own 1 (count them if you can) SR. I have been using it for about 1 year now and it has nearly become my daily shaver. I sent it to Lynn to get touched up. When it came back, it was clearly better. Then again, it lasted a year before I truly NEEDED to get it sharpened.

That's awesome! I'd stick with your process.

Alan, thanks for posting this thread.

I agree with your observations. A small amount of pressure is necessary. Based on what I have experienced and, most importantly, what I have observed from new guys who demonstrate their stropping for me, I have come to the conclusion that a majority of the new guys are afraid to put any pressure on the razor while stropping.
Most of them say that the edge is delicate and they do not want to ruin it.
One other observation I made was that they did not distinguish between pressure on the spine and pressure on the edge. Again, most of them had more pressure on the spine and less on the edge to the extent that in some cases the edge was occasionally not making contact with the leather.

To correct this I first assured them that the edge was not all that fragile. Then I suggested that they apply some "torque" to the tang so that 60"% of the weight/pressure is on the edge and 40% on the spine. Just enough to keep the edge in contact with the leather. The question always is "how much pressure?". I demonstrate my stropping and tell them that I judge mine by the amount of deflection in the center of the strop while I am stropping. My gauge is 1/2" - 1". I then have them practice stropping for awhile and most of them "get it" after only a few minutes. Oh, and I also demonstrate the X stroke and its advantages.

But, back to pressure.......yes, some is necessary. Just enough to keep the EDGE on the leather and to cause the strop to deflect in the center just a small bit.
And be consistent........

Just my $.02 :)

Randy,

Thank you for that great summary. The deflection part is an important point I was thinking of adding next. I think you've hit the nail on the head!

great info thanks for sharing!!!

Your observations and suggestions are right on with my own experience. Stropping can improve or damage a freshly honed edge. Better to favor light and loose. There is a real FEEL to proper stropping that very gently but adequately strops the edge to perfection. There is such a thing as too light on the pressure.

The width of the blade is also a factor. I find that my <5/8" half-hollow is far more tolerant of differing strokes and pressure than my >6/8" Bismarck extra hollow where a light touch is mandatory. Thanks for your commentary.

Attachment 88977

Thank you for the post Randy,
I'm new to this first off. I read your post on stropping and I think that's exactly what I'm doing! I was just about to put the thing back to the rocks but I think I'll take your advice and gve the strop another try. Worst I can do is screw it up right?!

Alan,

Thanks for the great post. I think you have talked over many of these points in our pm's and phone conversations and it's nice to see much of it all in one place.

Like many beginners I tried at first to put zero pressure on the strop. It's been a little tough to unlearn zero pressure from my muscle memory, but I am working on it, and watching for deflection too. I think I have seen some improvement in edges also.

-------Michael

AF D

Thanks for a great thread. As regards downward pressure, I have found that it is easy to prevent any variation by mounting all my strops at just below my elbow heighth. That way, the strop is always level and parallel to the floor on which I am standing and any pressure on the strop is the same throughout the stropping stroke.

Jerry
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Alan, let me start off by apologizing because as I read this thread. I was thinking he should put down the crack pipe. However, after reading all the replies I never realized that so many people didn't know how to strop. I've been shaving with a straight many, many years and didn't think this was a subject that even needed explaining. Since the point is to polish the edge. I didn't know that some people weren't using any pressure, which to me is ridiculous. Of course some pressure is needed not enough to bend the edge over but also not so little as to do nothing. I myself have been using three-inch SRP and to Illinois, 327 one pasted one not and have never had a problem stropping. I just assumed that most people would realize that just a light touch, enough to feel it, dragging would've been common sense. Again, you have my apologies. I've always found that the weight of my hand and as was stated about a half-inch of deflection of the strop is normal. If you dragging your razor across the strop was so much pressure that you see smoke coming off. Maybe you should lighten up. However, I had no idea that there were some newbies out there that were using no pressure as that would be a waste of time. I'm glad that you enlightened so many others out there. And once again my apologies.
Griz

I think this is a very good post. I get it completely. I've started to concentrate on my stropping more, trying for more of an x stroke, and concentrating on the pressure and such..

I wonder if a 'right' angle for stropping might be at the same height as the hand that holds the strop end? At present, the towel rail I secure mine to is higher than the holding hand...

No problem,

One of the benefits to being a mentor is that sometimes you have to create posts that make you look pretty dumb, or that you worry extensively about little things that don't matter. To a lot of people, including myself, it's relatively easy to get the concept of stropping. But I still find two concepts a little elusive, one, exactly what is the absolute best method of stropping, and two, what words precisely describe it and when do you know when you've achieved it. Maybe that's three.

Now, I need the crack pipe to get through the day . . .

A lot of people reply to my posts, simply in agreement. Most of the people who learn from them are the beginners and the lurkers.

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Originally Posted by Grizzley1

Alan, let me start off by apologizing because as I read this thread. I was thinking he should put down the crack pipe. However, after reading all the replies I never realized that so many people didn't know how to strop. I've been shaving with a straight many, many years and didn't think this was a subject that even needed explaining. Since the point is to polish the edge. I didn't know that some people weren't using any pressure, which to me is ridiculous. Of course some pressure is needed not enough to bend the edge over but also not so little as to do nothing. I myself have been using three-inch SRP and to Illinois, 327 one pasted one not and have never had a problem stropping. I just assumed that most people would realize that just a light touch, enough to feel it, dragging would've been common sense. Again, you have my apologies. I've always found that the weight of my hand and as was stated about a half-inch of deflection of the strop is normal. If you dragging your razor across the strop was so much pressure that you see smoke coming off. Maybe you should lighten up. However, I had no idea that there were some newbies out there that were using no pressure as that would be a waste of time. I'm glad that you enlightened so many others out there. And once again my apologies.
Griz

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I think any angle will work, but I prefer the strop to be level. Since I believe the amount of deflection is important, I like to be able to see the strop deflect.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I think this is a very good post. I get it completely. I've started to concentrate on my stropping more, trying for more of an x stroke, and concentrating on the pressure and such..

I wonder if a 'right' angle for stropping might be at the same height as the hand that holds the strop end? At present, the towel rail I secure mine to is higher than the holding hand...

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This thread is a great read for a new guy. I just got my razor/strop from SRD last week. Dovo Best 6/8 and the Latigo strop. I am fairly certain that after reading this I used way too much pressure and may have dulled my blade already. My first shave didn't go great, but I at least got some good smooth strokes so I know what it fells like. This morning, not one really smooth stroke. Just doesn't feel like the razor is gliding. I stopped after a couple strokes and went back and stropped probably another 100 laps as little pressure as I could. Didn't really seem to help much. I am sure my technique is most of the problem, but I shaved probably 75% of my face WTG and ended up with just a lot of razor burn.

My question is, if I keep stropping with very light pressure, will it eventually get better or I am pretty much screwed at this point not having any honing stones or strop paste?

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Originally Posted by Cochese2323

This thread is a great read for a new guy. I just got my razor/strop from SRD last week. Dovo Best 6/8 and the Latigo strop. I am fairly certain that after reading this I used way too much pressure and may have dulled my blade already. My first shave didn't go great, but I at least got some good smooth strokes so I know what it fells like. This morning, not one really smooth stroke. Just doesn't feel like the razor is gliding. I stopped after a couple strokes and went back and stropped probably another 100 laps as little pressure as I could. Didn't really seem to help much. I am sure my technique is most of the problem, but I shaved probably 75% of my face WTG and ended up with just a lot of razor burn.

My question is, if I keep stropping with very light pressure, will it eventually get better or I am pretty much screwed at this point not having any honing stones or strop paste?

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I think if you've dulled your razor by using too much pressure or rolling the edge, you need to take it to a hone. Stropping does not sharpen the blade. There's a HUGE amount of information on this site about what stropping does (or doesn't) do, and I'm yet to find a real conclusion to the debate, but it's enough to say the stop conditions the blade and however it does it; it extends the length of time between sharpening the bade.

Get yourself a Norton 4/8. You could most likely bring the blade up with 20 light strokes on the 8k side. If you watch a few videos here, use really light strokes, lap the stone first (I guess you really should get a good lapping stone too; the Norton one works well) and concentrate you should succeed.

However, if you can't afford a hone yet (and I highly recommend learning to hone yourself, it's very satisfying) or anything else to help with the edge, try stropping on rolled up newspaper. I did that when I had no strop and it seemed beneficial.

You do actually say "I am sure my technique is most of the problem", but I'm not sure if your being self depreciating or honest with yourself :-) If the later, ensure your face is well prepared and you have a good lather. Lather first and then strop, let the lather rest on your face as you strop. Strop very slowly, concentrate really hard, try to concentrate on JUST stropping, forcing all other thoughts from your mind. It's a Zen thing. Then place down the razor and check your lather with your finger tips. Has it dried a little while stropping? If so, dip your brush in a little water and face lather a little or add a little more water to your lather in the bowl (which should be sitting in a sink full of hot water (or in a scuttle)) and re-lather your face. Then, check the angle of the blade. Is it too steep? If your blade doesn't glide, but digs in, it could be the blade angle. Another reason for poor glide is the lather. Is it runny, or does it have millions of tiny bubbles? I like a frothy, bubbly lather, but the bubbles must be small.

The strokes should generally be short and overlap, though I use some long strokes, mainly on the easier parts like the cheeks. I'd never try and use a long stroke on a place like under the chin, they are very short and very very light there, I hold the razor for ATG under the chin very lightly with thumb and forefinger at the pivot, allowing the razor to 'give' if it tends to dig in. I then back off, adjust the angle, and try again.

If you only got your razor last week (I'm assuming it's your first) I wouldn't do ANY ATG until about another month at least.

Are you shaving too much? It's easy to get excited about your first straight shave and shave each day or even more than once a day; I did; I was VERY excited! A straight razor shave removes more skin than what you may have been using before, so I think really, in hindsight, you should shave only each second day at first, or at least have the first weekend off. if you haven't allowed some time off, this may account for the razor burn.

This is all just my opinion and views, there's a LOT of opinions out there! Hope this helps...

That is some great info. I have been wet shaving for a while and I use Tabac soap and proraso preshave, so I don't think it is my beard prep/lather.

What you said about me depreciating myself is probably true. I would think that I would at least be able to get a couple good strokes in while shaving 75% of my face and it being the 3rd attempt.

I also was working on 3 days growth, so not shaving too often.

I am going to give it another go tonight, hopefully it will go a little better. If not, my razor for SRD came with a free second honing. Might send it to them and have them send it back with a Norton 4k/8k stone so I can start to remedy this for myself. I am actually really looking forward to learning to hone. I think I might get a second razor first though so I have something I know is shave ready to compare to when learning to hone

Sounds like you have all bases covered. Sending it back for a re-hone and getting a stone sounds like a good plan too, as does getting another 'reference' razor. was just explaining that to my son only 10 minutes ago! he only has one razor, and while it shaved leg hair, I didn't think it passed the TPT (though, to be honest, I didn't test shave it). He's had the one razor all the time she's been SR shaving (four months) and he strops on his belt, so that may cause some issues. He's only 21 and has sparse hair, (only needs to shave every second day) so can get away with a dullish razor. When he tried one of my others he KNEW it was sharper than his. He then did 20 laps on the Shapton 16k with no pressure, and then 10 laps with TRULY no pressure and REALLY concentrating (those were my instructions). I then tested it and it was fine; even for ATG under the chin. I'd shaved this morning (It's evening now) so not a TRUE test but pretty good. he's only used a hone about three times, and only the Shapton 16k so far, but I'll introduce him to the Norton 4/8 soon...

Good luck and best wishes!