Stropping is King

Scott...

I think you have made a great contribution to the straight razor community. I cannot disagree with anything you have said. It has always been my contention that honing a razor has been too frequent for most users.

I'm still trying to find the reference I remember reading that says a razor may not need honing for years. The article also indicated that the pronounced bevel may completely disappear and only a slightly rounded surface originating from the apex on both sides of the blade meet in the middle to create and form the cutting edge.

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without having seen my strop, you strongly imply that it's not clean.

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I'm not implying anything. I'm just trying to inject a little reality here. I admire your skill, but physically it's not enough. I wouldn't know what to do with your strop if I saw it. What I'm talking about can't be seen, at least not without a microscope and knowing what you're looking for.

I'll give you another example. If you had a taco and a lot of people who ate it came down with an ecoli infection, I would suspect there's something on it. I could inspect that taco for the rest of my life and never find anything.

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I have a few IRS 361 strops for sale. I could take one down and use it as my daily strop. But how would that be any more convincing?

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If you used it for a while and got the same results it would tell me that the strop may be slightly abrasive.

I'll tell you what. If you use some other quality strop, say a clean one you get from Tony Miller (he can vouch for it) and you get the same results, I'll bow down to you, and I'll buy it from you. Then, I'll try it myself. You don't have to prove anything. I'll take your word for it. It can be any type of strop hanging, tabletop or paddle, but you have to be able to maintain your shave ready razors with it, and without touching a hone or pasated strop or anything equivalent, for at least six months.

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You seem very reluctant to entertain the idea that maybe I've developed a knack for stropping that goes beyond your experience and that of some others. Remember the 5 minute mile? Or was it 4 minutes?

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We're not talking about something within human control. I'll make it simple. You have a piece of wood with a rough surface. You want to make it smooth with a piece of bond paper. You could maybe do it with thousands of reps (I'll let you use a whole ream of paper), but could you do it with 800 without putting some abrasive on the paper?

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I think the only thing that will convince you personally is for you to have the same experience. Of course this will require much more experimentation on your part. On the other hand, if you are happy with the results you have been getting so far, then why bother?

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I'm an avid experimenter, and I've been researching and experimenting with shaving related issues for about 40 years. This is a worthwhile experiment. But I could only do it with an independent specimen of a strop that works. That's why I made my offer above. I think it should be of interest to both of us.

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Originally Posted by urleebird

Scott...

I think you have made a great contribution to the straight razor community. I cannot disagree with anything you have said. It has always been my contention that honing a razor has been too frequent for most users.

I'm still trying to find the reference I remember reading that says a razor may not need honing for years. The article also indicated that the pronounced bevel may completely disappear and only a slightly rounded surface originating from the apex on both sides of the blade meet in the middle to create and form the cutting edge.

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Urleebird
I tried to make this point earlier in the thread, but it fell on deaf ears due to no scientific proof. I think that prolonged stropping will eventualy set the edge bevel to a tear shape that imo is stronger and thus longer lasting. You just have to get to this point to start with.
My best shaving razor has never seen a hone since the day i bought it 23 years ago (I think), it has only ever been stropped and then mainly on differing grades of plain leather, with the odd refresh on a pasted hanging strop.
Like all good things in life....it doesn't come easy!

PuFF

Joe
Can you not take his word for it instead of being negative. I don't see why he/we should have to prove anything. Surely it is for you to dissprove in the usual tradition of the scientist. You border on calling us liars, though I know you don't mean it this way ;)

Set aside one razor and try to achieve what we can, but give it justifiable time for the test to work (months), then report back.
I believe that if you dedicate yourself to achieving this goal, then you to will recognise that this method has merit.
Vive La differance :)

Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:
1) You are honestly mistaken and have extremely thick skins and/or high tolerance for discomfort and/or low standards for shave closeness. (This also implies that your blades are sub-par)
2) Your strops have certain abrasive properties because mine sure can't keep a razor going past 15 shaves.
3) You're pulling our collective leg. (least likely)
The way I'd set up the experiment is:
1) Have Lynn find a razor to Scott's specs and hone/shave test it.
2) Have Tony M. send you a brand new strop, that only received stock treatment.
3) Have Scott use it for 100 shaves without using any hones or dressing the strop with anything other than Tony's stock strop dressing.
4) Have it sent back to Lynn for a re-evaluation.
That is ofcourse if the 3 gentlemen in question would agree to the experiment.

Why can this not be carried out by anyone willing to do it?
Doesnt this have to objective in it approach so no argument over the outcome can be claimed?

PuFF

Because AFIK Scott was the first one to claim that he can keep a blade going for 100 shaves without honing. Therefore we will assume that he knows how to strop properly. Lynn can be viewed as an impartial academic and Tony's strops are the community standard here. Therefore, we have a fair test set up.

How will you monitor Scotts stropping? Is it on trust or scientific analysys of the razors edge to see if abrasives were used?

I'm sorry but I feel Scott is getting a rough ride over what was only a man passing on a "TIP" that others could choose to emulate or dissregard as they see fit. If Scott claims to only use a plain leather strop to strop with and only use a hone every 6 mths or so, then I for one do not disspute this. If I did, I would set the challenge for my self to try and achieve the same result to prove or disprove one way or the other.
I too rarely hone but rely on pasted strops to refresh my blades. I will now try to emulate Scotts achievment to see if I too can do it. I see no reward from slating his claim when I have never tried to reproduce the result he has.
Any test you set up will only serve to confuse the issue on technicalities of opinion. The test if there should be one would best be served if carried out by Lynn on his own equipment and Tony the same. Or do you just claim Scott has abrasive on his strop? If so, the only way around this is for Scott to send his strop off to be evaluated.
All very good, but, is Scott on trial for heracy? :)

I am sure you have all read theorys on honing and stropping etc and I am sure you all came to the point of experiance where you prove or dissprove some of them. I for one have on many occations. Can you not treat Scotts theory in the same manner?

My 25 years of solely SR shaving has tought me a lot, I am sure that this thread has put me off passing on any knowledge I have gained.

signing off this thread!
PuFF

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:
1) You are honestly mistaken and have extremely thick skins and/or high tolerance for discomfort and/or low standards for shave closeness. (This also implies that your blades are sub-par)
2) Your strops have certain abrasive properties because mine sure can't keep a razor going past 15 shaves.
3) You're pulling our collective leg. (least likely)
The way I'd set up the experiment is:
1) Have Lynn find a razor to Scott's specs and hone/shave test it.
2) Have Tony M. send you a brand new strop, that only received stock treatment.
3) Have Scott use it for 100 shaves without using any hones or dressing the strop with anything other than Tony's stock strop dressing.
4) Have it sent back to Lynn for a re-evaluation.
That is ofcourse if the 3 gentlemen in question would agree to the experiment.

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Ilija,

I have no problem with this. Frankly, if what I've been able to do with my equipment can't be reproduced on standard, widely available strops, hones and razors, then my whole point expressed in this thread is totally moot.

I have never used one of Tony's strops, but I gather that they are generally considered to be good to excellent strops here on SRP. I think a commercially made strop (Illinois Razor Strop) should also be used, just for comparison.

Can I re-hone the razor at the start if think it needs it? Or does this trial require that I use it "as is" from Lynn? (Assuming Lynn wants to go along with this).

Really, I think this a great idea and would be willing to try it out. Let me know more.

Scott

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Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:

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Ilija... wait...

• What makes your skepticism... scientific?
• Against whos tonsorial tradition? Are you qualified to speak for all barbers? Careful, now... :nono:
• Whos accumulated experience? I believe both these guys, and it's not the first time I have heard/read about this method of keeping a razor sharp. Sounds like they also have experience to me.

I know you have heard the expression, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." So, just because you haven't experienced the same result, perhaps without even trying it first, yourself, it doesn't mean it isn't so.

I don't remember anyone saying that a hone doesn't work to keep a razor sharp. They are just saying it not as necessary if you don't want it to be. At least, that's my interpretation. :D