Thread: Stropping is King

Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:
1) You are honestly mistaken and have extremely thick skins and/or high tolerance for discomfort and/or low standards for shave closeness. (This also implies that your blades are sub-par)
2) Your strops have certain abrasive properties because mine sure can't keep a razor going past 15 shaves.
3) You're pulling our collective leg. (least likely)
The way I'd set up the experiment is:
1) Have Lynn find a razor to Scott's specs and hone/shave test it.
2) Have Tony M. send you a brand new strop, that only received stock treatment.
3) Have Scott use it for 100 shaves without using any hones or dressing the strop with anything other than Tony's stock strop dressing.
4) Have it sent back to Lynn for a re-evaluation.
That is ofcourse if the 3 gentlemen in question would agree to the experiment.

Why can this not be carried out by anyone willing to do it?
Doesnt this have to objective in it approach so no argument over the outcome can be claimed?

PuFF

Because AFIK Scott was the first one to claim that he can keep a blade going for 100 shaves without honing. Therefore we will assume that he knows how to strop properly. Lynn can be viewed as an impartial academic and Tony's strops are the community standard here. Therefore, we have a fair test set up.

How will you monitor Scotts stropping? Is it on trust or scientific analysys of the razors edge to see if abrasives were used?

I'm sorry but I feel Scott is getting a rough ride over what was only a man passing on a "TIP" that others could choose to emulate or dissregard as they see fit. If Scott claims to only use a plain leather strop to strop with and only use a hone every 6 mths or so, then I for one do not disspute this. If I did, I would set the challenge for my self to try and achieve the same result to prove or disprove one way or the other.
I too rarely hone but rely on pasted strops to refresh my blades. I will now try to emulate Scotts achievment to see if I too can do it. I see no reward from slating his claim when I have never tried to reproduce the result he has.
Any test you set up will only serve to confuse the issue on technicalities of opinion. The test if there should be one would best be served if carried out by Lynn on his own equipment and Tony the same. Or do you just claim Scott has abrasive on his strop? If so, the only way around this is for Scott to send his strop off to be evaluated.
All very good, but, is Scott on trial for heracy?

I am sure you have all read theorys on honing and stropping etc and I am sure you all came to the point of experiance where you prove or dissprove some of them. I for one have on many occations. Can you not treat Scotts theory in the same manner?

My 25 years of solely SR shaving has tought me a lot, I am sure that this thread has put me off passing on any knowledge I have gained.

signing off this thread!
PuFF

Originally Posted by PuFFaH

How will you monitor Scotts stropping? Is it on trust or scientific analysys of the razors edge to see if abrasives were used?

I accept Scott's word, and I'm sure Ilija will too.

I'm sorry but I feel Scott is getting a rough ride over what was only a man passing on a "TIP" that others could choose to emulate or dissregard as they see fit. If Scott claims to only use a plain leather strop to strop with and only use a hone every 6 mths or so, then I for one do not disspute this. If I did, I would set the challenge for my self to try and achieve the same result to prove or disprove one way or the other.

Scott is providing a scientific specimen. I claim I can't generate one and he claims he can, so who should be providing it?

Why are you reading an insult into this? If I disbelieved Scott I would ignore the whole thing. Simply because he didn't put something on the strop doesn't mean it hasn't gotten there over 10 years use. A neew strop of a different kind woulld present a much better specimen if he could succeed with it. The only thing it takes out of the picture is his strop being responsible for the results.

I too rarely hone but rely on pasted strops to refresh my blades.

As far as I'm concerned, that takes you out of the picture, because you don't do anything different than I do. If you come back in six months and tell us that you still have a keen edge and haven't refreshed the razor, we'll have something to talk about.

Any test you set up will only serve to confuse the issue on technicalities of opinion.

Yeah, why confuse things with objective facts?

The test if there should be one would best be served if carried out by Lynn on his own equipment and Tony the same.

Are you forgetting that Scott has the special skill?

Or do you just claim Scott has abrasive on his strop? If so, the only way around this is for Scott to send his strop off to be evaluated.
All very good, but, is Scott on trial for heracy?

And what would we test for? Do you have any idea how much of what would be enough? Why all this talk of trail and persecuting Scott? What gives? We're trying to set up an experiment to figure this thing out.

I hate to see you going off in a huff (or should I say puff?), but I think it's entirely unjustified.

Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:

Ilija... wait...

• What makes your skepticism... scientific?
• Against whos tonsorial tradition? Are you qualified to speak for all barbers? Careful, now...
• Whos accumulated experience? I believe both these guys, and it's not the first time I have heard/read about this method of keeping a razor sharp. Sounds like they also have experience to me.

I know you have heard the expression, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." So, just because you haven't experienced the same result, perhaps without even trying it first, yourself, it doesn't mean it isn't so.

I don't remember anyone saying that a hone doesn't work to keep a razor sharp. They are just saying it not as necessary if you don't want it to be. At least, that's my interpretation.

Originally Posted by urleebird

Ilija... wait...

• What makes your skepticism... scientific?
• Against whos tonsorial tradition? Are you qualified to speak for all barbers? Careful, now...
• Whos accumulated experience? I believe both these guys, and it's not the first time I have heard/read about this method of keeping a razor sharp. Sounds like they also have experience to me.

I know you have heard the expression, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." So, just because you haven't experienced the same result, perhaps without even trying it first, yourself, it doesn't mean it isn't so.

I don't remember anyone saying that a hone doesn't work to keep a razor sharp. They are just saying it not as necessary if you don't want it to be. At least, that's my interpretation.

We are not skeptical about the result. We accept it, and I accept Scott at his word, or I wouldn't have proposed that he do his thing and we accept that the edge was never exposed to an abrasive other than the plain strop.

The question we're trying answer is whether a razor can be maintained indefinitely with a normal leather strop only with a typical number of reps (40) per shave. If you have seen that proven, I would be very interested. Everything I've ever seen says you need to at least refresh occasionally. We're not talking about a hone, because using a pasted strop is also refreshing.

If we can show that, it would be a great contribution to sharpening science. Scott has done it, but we believe there's something on the strop (a trace). If he can do it with a new strop, it's a real accomplishent. Contrary to what's been said, I don't doubt Scott's results, I'm entirely willing to take his word on what he does. We just have different theories on the cause, and the experiment will resolve them.

There may be a small problem. Since Scott will know he's part of an experiment, his behavior/technique may change. I think the best way to eliminate this bias would be for someone to sneak into Scott's house, switch two of his razors and two strops, leave them for a certain amount of time, then sneak back in, switch the items back, and finally have an outside party test those razors. A blindfold might help too, but that could get a little dangerous.
On a serious note, whoever tests the razors at the end should have other razors thrown into the mix and not know which are from Scott.

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Joe and I both share a certain amount of scientific skepticism. What you gentlemen are suggesting goes against tonsorial tradition, accumulated experience and the accepted modern theories, which leads us to believe one of the following:
1) You are honestly mistaken and have extremely thick skins and/or high tolerance for discomfort and/or low standards for shave closeness. (This also implies that your blades are sub-par)
2) Your strops have certain abrasive properties because mine sure can't keep a razor going past 15 shaves.
3) You're pulling our collective leg. (least likely)
The way I'd set up the experiment is:
1) Have Lynn find a razor to Scott's specs and hone/shave test it.
2) Have Tony M. send you a brand new strop, that only received stock treatment.
3) Have Scott use it for 100 shaves without using any hones or dressing the strop with anything other than Tony's stock strop dressing.
4) Have it sent back to Lynn for a re-evaluation.
That is ofcourse if the 3 gentlemen in question would agree to the experiment.

Ilija,

I have no problem with this. Frankly, if what I've been able to do with my equipment can't be reproduced on standard, widely available strops, hones and razors, then my whole point expressed in this thread is totally moot.

I have never used one of Tony's strops, but I gather that they are generally considered to be good to excellent strops here on SRP. I think a commercially made strop (Illinois Razor Strop) should also be used, just for comparison.

Can I re-hone the razor at the start if think it needs it? Or does this trial require that I use it "as is" from Lynn? (Assuming Lynn wants to go along with this).

Really, I think this a great idea and would be willing to try it out. Let me know more.

Scott

I have to agree with PuFF though. Either you trust what I've already said, or how will you trust what I say in the future?

Only problem I see is this. Assuming my success is due to a physical "knack" that I've developed over time with practice (and that's what I've claimed from the start), all your experiment will really prove is that I have not been cheating (which is what your camp has been implying for some time). But then you will still be left with the dilema of the "knack" thing.

Why should I have to prove that I haven't been cheating? You're implying that either I don't know my shave equipment (my strop has some magic abrassive on it that lasts for years with only one application), or, that I am somehow dishonest about my success To what end would that serve me?? I'm making nothing from this. In fact I've provided guides and videos free to anyone who wants to learn from them.
And, are one of you guys going to stand over me for 100 shaves??

Either way, I am still game to the "challenge." Sounds fun to me.

Scott